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[0:00] Teresa Attridge: Ever wonder what it takes to make a new musical sing? Our mission is to give you an inclusive look behind the scenes. We're interviewing the creatives who are changing musical theater one 11 o'clock number at a time. This is your Backstage Pass.

[0:34] Pauls Macs: For the mortuary scientist preparing the deceased, there's one quality that separates mere craftsmen from artistes. As a gardener knows plants, as a carpenter knows wood, a mortician's canvas too must be wholly understood. What I mean is, you have to be a people person. You have to get to know their personality and recognize their individuality, things that set them apart. You have to be a people person. You have to figure out what's at the heart of them to emphasize the most appealing part of them. That's what makes it an art. Anyone can primp. Anyone can groom. Douse them with perfume and disinfect them. But with the proper skill set, you can truly resurrect them. To study and dissect a person is how you figure out what makes a person come alive.

And with a little TLC, I can make these people, people, people like me. Take Mr. Rayburn here, for example. Now he and I just met tonight, but already I've gotten to know so much about him. You're listening to People Person from the new musical Southern Harmony, A Murder Ballad. Welcome back to part two of our conversation with Kevin Fogarty about this dark comedy musical that explores a small town murder. Bernie Tiede was a model citizen. He was a star tenor in the church choir, director of the community theater, a trusted friend, and everyone's favorite funeral director and mortician. Marjorie Nugent was a wealthy widow, estranged from her entire family, conservative in her lending practices, accustomed to always having the final say, and had a reputation for being less than warm and welcoming.

They were an unlikely pair. Their arrangement was unconventional. There are bound to be problems, but the murder was just the beginning. When an ambitious, no-nonsense district attorney takes what he thinks will be an open-and-shut case, an East Texas town has to rethink everything they know about right and wrong to make sense of the situation. Mixing traditional musical theater with Southern gospel and Texas folk influences, the line between good and evil runs right through the heart of Texas in this dark, true crime musical comedy. Listen all the way to the end for a game where we decide which musical theater character we would murder and then act on their behalf. The thing I would offer to you is that your piece is a mystery, but the mystery is not what happened per se or that gets revealed earlier on in the show.

I think the mystery that your piece is trying to solve is how could this happen? What is it within our humanity that allows us, could allow someone like him to do this? That's the question that I think your show is asking.

[4:02] Kevin Fogarty: Yes. Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I think that is the question that all of the characters are asking themselves, including, to some degree, Bernie himself. And then I think they're, hopefully, at least what I was thinking, because I was asking that. I mean, I was asking that question as I was writing the show. And then also, I think, hopefully, what the audience might also start to ask is, why are the townspeople behaving in the way that they're behaving? The townspeople, which are just all composite characters of people that I've read about in articles that have said similar things, some of them are, of course, exaggerated for the purposes of comedy. But really, to me, the most fascinating part about the story is that the townspeople all feel one way about this situation for a particular reason towards the beginning.

And they're all very upset with the district attorney for the way he's handling this situation, pursuing this case. And what ends up happening, which really happened in this story, is in the second trial, because this case had two trials, basically, or like a resentencing hearing. And in the resentencing hearing, the district attorney has shifted his position. And the town, to a large extent, has also shifted their position, such that they're still in opposition to him. That was the most fascinating question, I think, that I was asking myself during the writing of this show is basically, what are we telling ourselves? Or what do we need to tell ourselves to think of ourselves as good people?

Like, what do I need? What do I, Kevin, have to wake up in the morning? And how do I assure myself that I'm a good person? And that question was just sticking with me every day as I was working on the show. So it's very fascinating, as I said, sort of study in sort of the human condition and human psychology and the stories that we tell ourselves, you know, as we go through our lives.

[5:51] Pauls Macs: The question that you're grappling with is the fundamental question that many of the greatest works of dramatic literature are grappling with. For example, I mean, Shakespeare, Richard III, who begins the play, who believes he's acting in one way, because I cannot prove a lover, I am determined to prove a villain. And by the end of Act Five realizes, oh, no, I have done these things, alas, because I rather hate myself. It's not that I hate everyone, I hate myself. Or, of course, the Scottish play is an investigation of how a noble virtuous person through the sudden calling of ambition can be driven to heinous acts. What's great is those stories can feel removed from us. Oh, that's Shakespeare.

But to locate that fundamental question in a story that's so immediate. I mean, Bernie is still alive. He's still out there. He's in prison right now. He is actually involved in a lawsuit right now in which he is amongst other people in prison suing the prison system for not having adequate air conditioning, which has killed other inmates. So he is still, by all means, trying to do the right thing from within prison to protect other people. It's actually very interesting. One of the most interesting parts of the book I found was there is a scene when Bernie is having an internal conversation with Marjorie, of course, who is dead. And whether he is being haunted by his own thoughts or a ghost or whether his associative disorder has been personified into Marjorie, however you wrote it or the audience would like to perceive it.

There is a part where she does tell him while she is needling him, you just want everyone to like you. And the fact that Bernie is haunted by the one person he cannot make like him because he has murdered her. It's so poignant because he's so tortured by this idea of like, oh, yeah, I can't win this person back over. I killed her. And she assures him like, I will remind you of this every single day. And it becomes interesting because you can see it as an antagonistic relationship or you can see it as someone who's just grappling with the truth of what has happened. Right. You know, there is the fact of what happens and then there is the way that we process it. And then there is the way we feel about it and the way we feel about ourselves. And none of those things are necessarily going to align, though they are all related.

[7:56] Kevin Fogarty: And then you have a character like James Tyler. Well, it's going to be fine. You know, we brought up this character earlier, but I would love to talk about that song. And I was really fascinated to learn that James was a composite character. Can you talk a little bit about that song? I feel like you learn a lot about their relationship, which, again, how did you dramatize that? Because you probably didn't have a lot to work on. I would love to hear how you created that relationship for the stage through this song.

[8:27] Kevin Fogarty: Oh, great. Great question. I do have to say that this is the one example that this is the example that always stands out to me, although there were others, where at the time that I was writing, when I first started writing the show, in the stuff that I was reading, I didn't have any material that would give me, you know, what I felt like the audience would need, which was like some sort of concrete event or, you know, incident or something that would actually, you know, cause the murder to happen, like in the moment. And so I basically, I needed to give Bernie some kind of motive to some character motivation here. And so I created this character, James Tyler, you know, based on, you know, what at the time I knew about Bernie, not again, not all of this was public yet.

This was, I think like in 2014, when I first started writing the show. So I actually created this character, James Tyler, and wrote him in there. And then it was only, you know, I think 2017, I don't know when it originally became public, but I found out about it, I think 2017 or 2018, that there was actually such a person. And it was, you know, like the fact that you wrote something and then found out it was true, that's still just wild. And so I did go back and sort of revise it to make it more historically accurate. Again, just in some ways, obviously, you know, my character is made up and it's not, it's not a portrayal of any real person, but the motivations were the same. So yes, Bernie, Bernie Tiede, the man had a relationship with this man in the show, James Tyler, it was obviously a very secret relationship and he is very much in love with this character.

But he never says that. Well, we'll talk about it on the other side of it, but that's part of what's great about the song. Yes. So he is very much in love with this character. And one of the actually strangest to me, and there's lots of strange things that happen in the story. One of the strangest is that the afternoon of the murder, Bernie really did go to the theater. And what happened in real life is he went to the theater for a dress rehearsal of a musical in our show, just for a little extra dramatic oomph. He went to opening night of the musical basically a day later. So we moved the timing one day, but trying to get in my mind going. And I mean, you all are actors for me. I have to be imagined like playing in the pit or something.

I don't know because I've not been on stage, but to have an incident like this where you've committed such a crime and to go and just perform a musical is just wild to me. It is. But that part really happened. And so setting up this song, he has committed this murder and he goes and performs the opening night of this musical. And after the show at the reception, he is getting ready to confess. He's looking for the sheriff. He wants to confess that he committed this crime. He doesn't know what else to do. And in the midst of looking for the sheriff, he runs into James Tyler and James Tyler tells him, James Tyler can see that he's very upset and all Bernie tells James Tyler is that he had a fight with Mrs. Nugent.

And James Tyler attempts to reassure him by almost, I mean, very, yeah, very ironically almost saying it's going to be fine, which in James Tyler's mind is the complete appropriate thing to say. This is to him. It's just been a, it's just kind of a fight that's happened. He says, it's going to, you know, he's, he's trying to reassure him. So he's telling him it's going to be fine. What it ends up doing, unbeknownst to James Tyler is convincing Bernie that perhaps there's a way out of this and perhaps it could be fine and perhaps you and I can now be together. So that's the setup for this song.

[11:40] Kevin Fogarty: That's a great setup. Who is performing this song? This is being performed by also a great New York actor, Daniel Yearwood, who was just recently off Broadway in the Count of Monte Cristo. Gorgeous music. And Daniel is singing this here along with, he's playing James Tyler and Bernie is again being played by Todd Buonopane. Fantastic. All right. Here is It's Gonna Be Fine performed by Daniel Yearwood and Todd Buonopane.

[12:09] ♪ Musical number: "It's Gonna Be Fine" — performed by Daniel Yearwood and Todd Buonopane ♪

[15:17] Kevin Fogarty: I think people realize what's happening in this song.

[15:19] Pauls Macs: Yes. Yeah, hopefully they do. And I'm glad you said that, Pauls. That was hopefully the point. So I'm glad it's coming across.

[15:26] Kevin Fogarty: I think it is. And also, the fact that he loved and was loved by someone makes him again human. Makes us again question, well, how does someone who's capable of that love then go and commit an act?

[15:40] Pauls Macs: Or as you said, even crazier than that, how does someone commit an act of murder and then go to dress rehearsal or even in our show, an opening night of their musical? That's really wild.

[15:50] Kevin Fogarty: Yeah, I still can't, even just thinking about it now, I still can't get in the mindset of what that would be like. But you know, again, he was in a different mindset, you know, back then with the, you know, committing the act, there was the disassociation. And so maybe, you know, maybe that played into, you know, the following nine months where, you know, he carried on about life, hiding the secret.

[16:12] Pauls Macs: And that's a perfect segue into the last song.

[16:14] Kevin Fogarty: Oh, great.

[16:15] Pauls Macs: Mrs. Nugent, you perfectly set that up. Tell us about the new Mrs. Nugent and what's going on in that song.

[16:20] Kevin Fogarty: Yeah, so this is the act one closer. And so this is after he's decided at the end of the song, it's going to be fine. Bernie has decided that he's not going to confess to this crime just yet. And he gets the idea, you know, from listening to James Tyler, even though James Tyler was in no way trying to give him this idea. But he gets the idea from James Tyler that it might be beneficial for Bernie if he doesn't confess to this crime, meaning he and James Tyler could get together. But what this song is actually about is Bernie is, by his own conception of himself, like the way he views himself, he's a good person. And so he knows that normally a good person would not commit a murder and then try to cover it up and not, you know, confess to murder.

Like none of these things are in line with his perception of himself. And so the only way that he can get these two things to reconcile is if in his mind he can, he has to convince himself that he's doing this because this is what a good person would do. And the way he does that is twofold. He gets the idea that it would also be beneficial to Marjorie if he carries on her legacy by, he has access to all of her money at this point, by taking her money and using it for good things, whereby she gets credit for doing all these good things for all of these people in need in the town, which is actually a real thing. Bernie Tita did start scholarship funds. He bought people cars whose cars had broken down.

And by all accounts, he did not spend any great amount of this massive wealth that he had access to on himself. It was all spent, for the most part, on other people. So in this song, he is singing to Marjorie. Marjorie has now been dead for a few hours and she's in a freezer. And he is singing to her in an attempt to convince her that this arrangement could be mutually beneficial for both of them.

[18:08] Pauls Macs: Another ace setup. And this is Todd again?

[18:11] Kevin Fogarty: Yes, and this is Todd Buonopane.

[18:13] Pauls Macs: Can we just shout out Todd really quick? Go ahead.

[18:16] Kevin Fogarty: Yeah, I would love to shout out Todd. So I met Todd, we were getting ready to, we had got everything squared away, had the show fully cast for the world premiere in Massachusetts last summer. We did not have a Bernie. A few weeks before, just I think two weeks before we went into rehearsal, we were at Pearl Studios hearing some auditions. Sam, our director was there, Nevada, our music director, Nevada Lozano, he was also there.

[18:40] Pauls Macs: Nevada Lozano!

[18:41] Kevin Fogarty: Yeah.

[18:42] Pauls Macs: Who has not been on the pod, but has been on New York Theatre Barn's new work series before. It's been quite a while, but it's a really, really fantastic writer.

[18:49] Kevin Fogarty: Yeah, he's an amazing talent as well. Todd walked in and sang the new Mrs. Nugent, sang a cut from it. And immediately, we knew like this, this is, this is going to be fine. This is going to be great. We're in excellent hands that day. There were other certainly talented people, but it was absolutely unanimous decision that Todd was there and he came up and did the show with us in Cape Cod and was really, he just really understood the character. I'll definitely say that. He's, you can tell, you know, from hearing these recordings, he's very talented, of course, but he really understood the balance that we were trying to strike with the character and can't say enough great things about Todd. Also, in case you haven't met him, the sweetest man.

[19:29] Pauls Macs: That comes across in his performance. Again, I guess I said grounded, but Jack Black is a very, very specific flavor, right? Like what Todd brought was that very genuine earnestness, that desire to be a good person to do good things, which again, complicates the character. I'm saying all the good stuff before the song. So here is the new Mrs. Nugent performed by Todd Buonopane.

[19:59] ♪ Musical number: "The New Mrs. Nugent" — performed by Todd Buonopane ♪

[23:57] Pauls Macs: Well, Kevin, this is really how you end an act. And it's such an unexpected number from Bernie. I like how it first calls back to "People Person," like it calls back to that foundation of him. And then suddenly after that, this plan that he's concocting, oh, I'll just do all these good things, all these people with this wealth that I have, it makes sense.

[24:49] Pauls Macs: I have not seen all of Breaking Bad.

[24:51] Kevin Fogarty: I haven't seen either. Watch Mad Men instead.

[24:53] Pauls Macs: I haven't seen any of Breaking Bad.

[24:56] Teresa Attridge: You're in good company, Kevin. I'm not cutting that.

[24:59] Kevin Fogarty: I know it's enough to... I've heard this transformation this character goes through from being literally one type of person morally to being a different type of person morally. To make those kind of leaps again, I think what was most fascinating to me about this show is what does a person do to assure themselves that they're OK, that they're a good person. And trying to get some of that... It's a musical after all, so we've got to have some don't rain on my parade kind of flair there at the end of the act where everything's coming up roses. So trying to get a little of the musical theater pizzazz in there as well. The other thing I just really enjoy about it is while she's in the fridge, there is an aspect of having a conversation with her that will then manifest more fully earlier and later in the show when he's having full-on conversations with her.

At one point he even says, Oh, of course it can work, as if she was like, that's never going to work. And he goes, Oh, of course it can work. This requires attention to detail, attention to detail as he's talking about in-people person. So it all ties together.

[26:00] Kevin Fogarty: The thing that I would say, again, I don't know if this is spoilery because it's the last line of the play. But for me, the central thesis of your show, like the core of the show is I don't think any of us have any idea what's inside of us. And that's I think is the truth of the show is that Bernie could have that killer lurking inside himself and never even understand, never know it was there until suddenly it was there. It's a very unsettling thought. But I also think there's something very, very, very true about it. On that same note, Paul, mine is the end of a different scene, like a scene before was when James Tyler visits Bernie and Bernie asks him, Am I a bad person? And James says, You don't know.

And that's such an interesting answer because it does force the audience to reckon with whether they believe Bernie is a good or bad person. And I mentioned this at the top of the episode. Are you defined by the best or the worst thing you've ever done? And yes, it depends on the degree of how good or how bad it was. But I think especially now, and I'm wondering if this has anything to do, Kevin, with when you talked about people of different ages reacting differently to this material. For a lot of younger people who are growing up in the social media generation, one mistake can ruin your entire life forever because everything is monitored. And there are people who feel like you're in constant surveillance or the worst thing you've ever said or done on the Internet is going to be there for the rest of your life.

Is that who you are or is that something you did? And are you your actions or are you your beliefs? It just comes down to how do we define a good or a bad person? How do we define good or bad? Was Marjorie a good or a bad person? And does that mean she did or didn't deserve what happened to her? Was Bernie a good person? And did he deserve or not deserve what happened to him? And I think that the ability to have those conversations with nuance is important, of course. But I think that the gray area is only interesting if people do have the walls of what they believe is ultimately good or ultimately bad. Because if the entire world is gray, then you don't really form an opinion. You just bounce around thoughts.

[28:12] Teresa Attridge: Yes, 100%. You put that so well, Teresa. These are the exact things that I hope people would leave the show thinking about and talking about. It helps if they're humming some of the tunes. That would flatter me. Especially if they're asking these questions and talking about this over dinner for the next couple of days. That would make me so happy. And the only other thing I think I would say is that it may sound a little strange. Is it weird of me to say that for all of the sort of darker undertones of the show that I really also hope people see one particular thing about the show that I think makes it a very hopeful show? As I was writing the show, obviously, I was having to just wrestle through.

I had to turn all of the questions that I was wanting the audience to ask themselves. Of course, I had to turn all those questions on myself, and some of them are not altogether comfortable questions to wrestle with. But I did end up coming out very hopeful because there are characters in this show that change. And in the end, we can always change, and people can always change.

[29:15] Pauls Macs: Yeah, I think that comes across for sure. Especially we see, I think, interestingly, the community, going back to what we were talking about at the beginning of the podcast. Well, we talked a lot about very specifically Bernie or the DA's quest because he's ultimately the one who says that. He's the one who comes to the conclusion after trying to understand Bernie the entire show. Finally, he says, I don't think any of us have any idea what's inside of us, which is not an answer, but it is an answer at the same time. But also to see the community grappling with, oh, but Bernie changed my life in this really positive way. How do I reconcile the space between? Game Master Teresa, should we close out? Are we ready for our game?

[29:53] Teresa Attridge: I think so. Now it is time for a fan favorite segment. The Barnacles love it. We love it. The game. And today's game, I'm so sorry. There was no other name for it. It had to be called Weekend at Bernie's. It was right there. It's too perfect. But our version is just going to be slightly different with that special MT touch. So the question is, which musical theater character in the canon would you murder and then act on behalf of if you had to, if you had a dissociative episode and woke up and you had killed a musical theater character and you're like, well, I guess I better make this worth it for as long as possible. Who are you going to pick? Who's going first?

[30:37] Pauls Macs: OK, yeah, I had a good first answer right off the right off the cuff. You're in Town is so important to me as a show, especially, you know, there's the first musical I ever directed was You're in Town. And the first guest on Backstage Pass was the co-writer of You're in Town, Greg Kotis. My mind immediately went to Caldwell B. Caldwell. I mean, I'm not advocating murder, but if I had to, I could take him out and I do a lot of good with his wealth and I could restore free bathrooms and do a lot of good for the environment and hopefully turn around the ending of that show. So that was my first answer is Caldwell B. Caldwell from You're in Town.

[31:14] Kevin Fogarty: Good choice. Do you have one, Kevin?

[31:16] Pauls Macs: Take your time. We can also workshop it together, right? Like if inspiration comes to you, launch in.

[31:22] Kevin Fogarty: I had two answers and they're both kind of along the same lines. But the first one I thought it was the Trunchbull from Matilda. Yeah, because stop torturing those kids. I could kill the Trunchbull and then I could let those kids have a normal, healthy learning environment for as long as possible. Miss Honey could have her house. I don't care. And the other one was actually also someone where the show involves children. It was Mr. Warbucks from Annie.

[31:46] Pauls Macs: Daddy Warbucks? You're going to take out Daddy Warbucks? OK, this is going on the Internet and social media is going to judge you.

[31:52] Kevin Fogarty: Bye, Bald. Exactly. But here's the thing is that if we're talking about redistribution of wealth and political influence and who's going to adopt the rest of the orphans, there's a lot of good that Mr. Warbucks could do in death.

[32:07] Pauls Macs: To one orphan, right?

[32:09] Kevin Fogarty: No, he goes back.

[32:11] Pauls Macs: To one orphan! I could help all the orphans! Basically, any character who is in charge and could make the life of a child better, I would do it. I would do it for the children.

[32:24] Teresa Attridge: OK, I actually don't remember the plot of Annie. Does he go back and go to the orphanage and then change all of their lives?

[32:30] Kevin Fogarty: No, he adopts Annie and the kids get to go to the party where she gets adopted. And we assume that they're going to be OK.

[32:40] Pauls Macs: But we don't know. It's the Great Depression. Who can afford an orphan? Who can afford anything?

[32:44] Kevin Fogarty: All right, Kevin. Are you ready?

[32:46] Kevin Fogarty: Yeah, I knew that, too. I'm not ready, but maybe we can just toss out some...

[32:50] Pauls Macs: Yeah, let's do it. Let's float some ideas. You know, there's a lot of Disney villains in the canon that if you took out, you might do some good. I don't know if that opens any doors for you.

[33:00] Kevin Fogarty: Love is an open door. Han's dead.

[33:02] Pauls Macs: It should concern people how much easier this game is for me.

[33:04] Kevin Fogarty: Yeah, you kill people quite easily. Let me tell you. Like I said, Bernie and I were like this. We're tight. I'm trying to think here. Maybe all of the ones that I'm thinking about end up dying. Yeah, so like Javert would be a good one, but then like, do you want to be Javert because he commits suicide? You know, like you could do a lot of good as Javert.

[33:19] Pauls Macs: I see what you're saying. Or you kill someone to prevent them from doing something else.

[33:24] Kevin Fogarty: Hey, I can offer something to you. Is there a certain favorite musical of yours where if you were to kill the main character, you could then maybe undo some of like an act on their behalf. You might undo some of like the tragic things they do at the very end of that show.

[33:40] Pauls Macs: Oh yeah. Not even the main character. Get rid of Judge Turpin right away. That's absolutely where my mind went first. I was, you know, was definitely going to pick any number of characters from Sweeney. The only one that is completely off the list would be Toby, but he's the only one basically that makes it. Well, and you know, he goes crazy at the end. So like there's no good. There's no good outcomes. But you can make those outcomes positive. You can be like, Toby, you're going into the Boy Scouts there, bud. Or we're going to get you a hobby. Here's a Game Boy. I would do this. I would probably shorten, as much as I love her, I would probably shorten the timeline of Mrs. Lovett and change the recipes.

[34:45] Pauls Macs: The most answered answer of all time on Backstage Pass. And you didn't even know, Kevin.

[34:47] Kevin Fogarty: Oh no.

[34:48] Pauls Macs: Mrs. Lovett is the top scorer. If there's a barnacle out there who's just a nerd and a whiz. We need an intern. Get an intern on it. Make them listen to all the Backstage Pass and tally all the answers.

[34:56] Kevin Fogarty: I would intercept. I would switch places right at the, you know, the end of Act One. And I would make some very, very key changes to the recipes in Act Two.

[35:05] Pauls Macs: There you go.

[35:06] Teresa Attridge: Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. It's a vegan pie shop.

[35:09] Pauls Macs: Well, Kevin, it truly was a pleasure to have you on the show, sharing something that's just a little bit different than we've experienced before. So thank you for sharing your insights and sharing the story with us. And I have been pondering, you know, that fundamental question of, is it possible for us to know what's inside of us, what we're capable of all day? I think as you hoped, I think as you hoped, and I will be continuing to ponder it in the future.

[35:29] Kevin Fogarty: Oh, that's great. I got to say y'all are such a joy and a blast to talk to. Thank you so much for having me on the show. It's such a great time. I love the work that y'all are doing and promoting new works. It's very important work, extremely important work. And what y'all are doing is really great. And I appreciate it. And I know a lot of writers appreciate it. And so I want to say that. And thank you for going down this, you know, little bit of a twisted path, a windy, windy path with me on this show. I really, really appreciate it.

[35:54] Pauls Macs: You kind, generous, generous person. Now we know to watch out for that though.

[35:57] Kevin Fogarty: Oh, exactly. What are you capable of?

[35:59] Pauls Macs: That's true. Don't let me anywhere near your freezer, Kevin.

[36:02] Kevin Fogarty: Y'all are safe.

[36:03] Pauls Macs: Okay, Barnacles, thank you so much for listening. We'll see you again soon.

[36:06] Teresa Attridge: Thank you, Barnacles. We love you. Bye.

[36:09] Pauls Macs: Thanks for joining us on New York Theatre Barn's Backstage Pass, hosted by Teresa Attridge and Pauls Macs. And if you believe in supporting original culture-shifting musicals, please like, subscribe, and share.