This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:01] Joshua Finkel: What is it about the workshop though is Manuel Puig attended and sat next to Hal, and Manuel Puig, what Hal remembers, and that was soon before I think Manuel passed. What Hal remembered Manuel Puig saying to him, which really kind of shaped his take on this relationship of Molina and Valentin. He said, it's manipulation. It's not love. And I was like, that's rough. And I don't think it's purely that. But that's what kind of what Hal remembers. It is interesting to kind of think about how some of the stuff was planted or some of the beats were written, to think about it being more manipulation. And I kind of feel the admiration and the love of each other's differences and finding a commonality is what is sort of the center of the play.

Such different people learn to grow together and appreciate each other. But also that brings the ambiguity to it because it is an incredibly mysterious piece too. There is so much that goes unsaid and so many different motivations and questioning. And so it's one of the reasons why you could probably talk about the show for hours.

[1:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Welcome everybody to A Musical Theatre Podcast where we discuss the cultural and emotional impact of some of our favorite musicals in theatre history. My name is Jeffrey Scott Parsons. You can call me Jeff. Today we are discussing the musical that won the most votes in our Best Musical Tony winner poll. By the way, Tonys are on Sunday. Who's excited? I am. Anyway, we put together the votes from Twitter, Instagram stories, comments on our regular feed, and the winner was Kiss of the Spider Woman. Selfishly, I'm really glad it won. I find this show endlessly fascinating. So thank you listeners. Now here to join me in this conversation is someone from the original cast of Spider Woman. You know, sometimes I hear the title abbreviated to Kiss and I completely disagree. That is wrong. The abbreviation is Spider Woman. Anyway, he's an actor, director, coach, and so much more. Everyone, please welcome Mr. Joshua Finkel.

[2:29] Joshua Finkel: Hey, hi everybody. Hi Jeff.

[2:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Hello, hello. Thank you so much for doing this with me. I'm really excited.

[2:35] Joshua Finkel: I'm thrilled to be here and talk about this wonderful show. It's such a, it's such so near and dear to my heart. It's so important. You know, it's foundational to me, so I love it.

[2:43] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So talk to me about when you were introduced. How did you meet this show?

[2:48] Joshua Finkel: I met this show, you know, getting to audition for it. I was on tour with Les Miserables, and I happened to be playing nearby New York. I was in Philadelphia. We were playing the Schubert in Philly, and they were auditioning, and I got called in by the same casting office, by Johnson Lith, Vinnie Lith, God rest him, called me in for the show. And I was called in for like Ensemble and Molina cover, I guess, because they already had, I think, a cast of Brent Carver. And so they were looking for that person. And that's what I got to be called in for. So I, you know, prepped it. I got on the train. I got up to New York, and I did it, and I got to come back for a callback. And then I got it, and I couldn't believe it. It was really an incredible thing. It was my first, you know, Broadway credits. That was really also an amazing journey to get there as well from Toronto through London to Broadway, and then did the national tour as well after that.

[3:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh my gosh. Okay, so you weren't kidding. This is like a huge part of your life.

[3:51] Joshua Finkel: Yeah. And I mean, I find the genesis and the road to Broadway for this musical to be really singular and interesting. So I can't wait to go through that with you. And I'm glad that you were there pretty much the whole way. To begin talking about the show, however, you got to talk about the book, right?

[4:11] Joshua Finkel: Yes. Manuel Puig, who is an Argentinian author, an Argentine author, born 1932. He writes El Beso de la Mujer Araña in 1976. Was he gay? Do you know, Josh?

[4:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I don't know. I believe he was. I mean, I researched it. I couldn't find anything, but like another one of his novels was called Betrayed by Rita Hayworth. So if he wasn't gay...

[4:39] Joshua Finkel: He was definitely a sin, he asked. He was definitely exploring diva worship as though he were, you know?

[4:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes, yes, no question. Specifically with the novel, though, have you read it?

[4:49] Joshua Finkel: I did a long time ago. I tried to. I couldn't get through it. It's quite unconventional, you know? Much of it is dialogue. There's really no indication of who's talking. There's just maybe a tick mark to show that a different person is speaking. It's like a transcript. It's really interesting.

[5:11] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, right, right. It's really an interesting book. It gets then turned into a film in 1985, starring William Hurt.

[5:18] Joshua Finkel: Or is the play next? I think the play...

[5:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: The play is next and then the film.

[5:23] Joshua Finkel: The play was... Yeah. I haven't ever seen the play version, but I have seen the film, which of course is its own beast and beautiful and starred William Hurt, who passed recently, which is very sad. And Raul Julia passed during our building process. I think he passed during Toronto or London or something. It was really early in the process. It was a big thing for us, you know? Because we so admired his Valentin and who he was as a person.

[5:50] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely. I mean, what an incredible performer.

[5:55] Joshua Finkel: Yeah. So enter Fred Ebb, legendary lyricist of Kander and Ebb.

[6:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, no. And funny. So funny. Oh my God. So funny. He and his writing partner, John Kander, had of course changed musical theater forever with Cabaret. If you haven't listened to our Cabaret episode, please listen to our Cabaret episode. And I mean, let's be honest, never did they ever look at an idea and think this can't be musicalized, right?

[6:16] Joshua Finkel: Oh, no. Darksicals, like them and Hal Prince, like let's take the weirdest, like that which should never be a musical and let's make a musical of it. Let's try it. Do you have any favorite Kander and Ebbs or is this it?

[6:32] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I mean, it's hard. I do love Cabaret. I do love Chicago.

[6:39] Joshua Finkel: Oh, hello. Yes, of course. Yeah. I mean, I would say those two in terms of book and genre, I think just work the best for me.

[6:48] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

[6:49] Joshua Finkel: The C20s is so in their wheelhouse and the grime and all that stuff. It's just brilliant in how they put their sound and their stamp on everything. And then of course, all the stuff from World Goes Round, just like The Rink has amazing music on, just beautiful.

[7:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, and that's what's so fun about exploring their catalog of shows is that you inevitably find these strange musicals with incredible songs. And right before they started working on Kiss of the Spider Woman, they had had a flop in a show called The Rink. Case in point, a story about a mother and daughter and the trauma of owning a roller rink.

[7:28] Joshua Finkel: And one leaving home really early. Yes, absolutely. You know, it's very interesting.

[7:36] Joshua Finkel: It's an interesting show starring Chita Rivera and Liza Minnelli. It didn't go well. I go back and listen to it and there's that blue crystal song. I'm like, what is happening? It's so interesting. But out of that comes this relationship of Fred Ebb, John Kander,

[7:57] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And Terrence McNally. Famous playwright, Terrence McNally. We talked about him on Ragtime, right?

[8:01] Joshua Finkel: He won a Tony for that show as well. And Fred, having both read the book, and this comes from an interview I watched on YouTube. Thank you, YouTube. Fred, having read the book, seen the film, calls up John Kander and says, what do you think about turning Kiss the Spider Woman into a musical? Kander says, sure. You know, because he's so like understated. And they decide, okay, well, we should call Terrence McNally. Which, great idea, because let's be honest, if you want 80s Broadway theater about homosexuals, you either call Terrence McNally or Harvey Fierstein. Or Paul Rudnick. Those are your three.

[8:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Fair enough.

[8:43] Joshua Finkel: They call Terrence McNally. Fred said, hey, we're thinking of turning Kiss of, and Terrence McNally said he was just praying that the rest of that sentence was going to be the Spider Woman, because he thought it would be a fantastic idea. So all three of them are together. They loop in Hal Prince, who was more than happy to join his composing team from Cabaret. And together, they set out to create version one of the show. And this is where the story gets really interesting. Instead of just getting a bare bones workshop or an out of town tryout in Boston, Kiss of the Spider Woman gets this hybrid of the two. It was a workshop, but lavishly produced, like it was a full production.

[9:32] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, they had like breakaway sets, like walls are sliding. I'm like, wow, okay.

[9:36] Joshua Finkel: Yeah. Fully, fully produced with high ticket price. I was at this now defunct organization called New Musicals in Purchase, New York. It was at the college there. And long story short, it goes badly, like really bad. And what's kind of unfair, but also somewhat understandable, is that critics were not invited, but the high ticket price and the huge production.

[10:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And the name list.

[10:07] Joshua Finkel: And the name list meant that all the critics ignored that request, and they all came. Frank Rich, John Simon, sure, sure. So they sit down, they all just hack it to bits. And so they're like, all right, well, this show's dead. However, there were two other people in the audience as well. One, Garth Strubinsky, producer extraordinaire of the 90s who we talked about, also in our Ragtime episode. And Chita Rivera, who was in The Rink, but also, I mean, just Broadway royalty.

[10:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And like the dearest friends of John and Fred.

[10:42] Joshua Finkel: Yeah, best friend. Just like, hey, you want to be a friend and come see my show?

[10:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Exactly. And so she goes there, she's sitting there, and she's watching the show. And she says that when she was sitting there watching it, she couldn't follow it very well. She was very honest. When I first saw it, I wasn't understanding what was going on. But she saw the character of Aurora, and in the back of her mind, she thought, you know, I could do this role. This might be a great fit for me.

[11:12] Joshua Finkel: And apparently...

[11:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Keep your eye on the prize, girl.

[11:13] Joshua Finkel: Right? But also, she swears that she had never thought in going to the show that there was a part for her in it. But just while sitting there watching it, she was like, huh, interesting. Talk to me about the legend that is Chita Rivera, because there are a few people I know that have worked with her as closely as you have. I mean, you've kissed her.

[11:35] Richard Bermudez: Many times. I've kissed a lot of kind of fun people. I was like, I've kissed you, I've kissed Vanessa Williams, I've kissed...

[11:43] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's great.

[11:44] Richard Bermudez: So Chita, the thing I want to just throw down and like lay out flowers for the royalty is she will try everything. Like if they're saying, because literally in Toronto, sometimes numbers lasted an afternoon, sometimes it lasted two days before they were thrown out and like new papers and like constantly changing certain numbers and trying new things and trying to have it connect better, make sense, reframe it, you know. So she was always up for trying stuff new.

[12:17] Joshua Finkel: And the thing about Chita is like, she will go for it. She won't say, this is not going to work, I'm not going to do it. She'll be like, mm-hmm, okay. Let's give it a try.

[12:26] Richard Bermudez: Like, and you could tell like sometimes in her nodding yes, you could tell like, I'm on board with this. You're like, okay. But she'll still do it and go 100%. Like, that was what's amazing. It's like, this is not such a great number right now, but you are like going 2 million percent and playing it fully to say, here's the best that I can do with what this is. And it's always really-

[12:50] Joshua Finkel: Here's the best version of this bad idea.

[12:52] Richard Bermudez: And it's commendable. Like, you're like, I'm riveted by watching you. And then I'm trying to like zoom out and go to this all work into the whole, you know, papier-mâché of the show.

[13:02] Joshua Finkel: Wow, that's that dancer life.

[13:05] Richard Bermudez: Yeah, that's like money in your pocket. And she was just a very generous, you know, wonderful person. And it was, you know, it was hard on tour, like she hurt her knee. Carol Lawrence had to come in for her. And it was, you know, you could tell how hard it was for her to miss. Like, she would be, you know, pushing into those stairs, getting up those stairs from a crossover and her knee was killing her and she'd still like ice it down and get out there. Like, it was just amazing to have this woman, you know, then in her 60s do it and just kill her to miss, you know. So when she had to take that time off, it was like, I just, that's what I'm saying. It's like someone who has that work ethic, has that go 100% every day, all the time, not mark and go for it fully.

That was an amazing lesson to enjoy and watch and watch her technique. I was always just thinking, how is she going to make this work? And she would make these choices that did make it work the best it could. So that was a real lesson.

[14:03] Joshua Finkel: I honestly can't believe she was in her 60s when the show, because that means that, I mean, she was only on Broadway a couple of years ago.

[14:12] Richard Bermudez: Yeah.

[14:13] Joshua Finkel: So that, I mean, do the math, people.

[14:14] Richard Bermudez: Oh, she's like, she's like 88 now, I think, or something and still like, fabulous. You know, she's like, she's like 100%. She's just fabulous.

[14:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay, so we got Disaster Workshop, then two years passed. So before Garth Sierpinski has everything in motion to

[14:36] Joshua Finkel: Try the show again. Yeah, you go to Canada 'cause he's Canadian. You got you, you do it in Toronto. Is that kind of when the most changes happen is for the Toronto production?

[14:48] Richard Bermudez: Yes, and actually the most, most well, that was a constantly revolving door of like, what are we doing? And then by the time we kind of got it up at the beginning of Toronto, I think they were like, this is the best we can do right now. We're kind of done, so we're gonna run this for a, we're gonna run this, but they knew that they wanted to still work on it.

[15:10] Joshua Finkel: So they ended up bringing on Rob Marshall and he brought on Kathleen Marshall as his assistant choreographers. And they actually, before that, they had brought in Graciela Danielle, which I was like, oh my God, I want to work with her. Who's actually Argentinian? Fabulous. And she came and she had, she saw the show in Toronto and she had a lot of, had a meeting. She had a lot of great questions about the show. And then she said, you know, in terms of like, I guess how they were talking about it or the stuff she brought up, it was a little complicated. I guess they weren't on their same page or like thinking would all fold in well. So she referred it to one of her protégés, which is Rob Marshall. Hmm. That's how Rob, I don't think I ever put that together. Rob Marshall is a Graciela protégé.

[15:58] Richard Bermudez: Yeah, from the rink and from other stuff that they had worked together and he'd been her dance captain, I believe. And so she like passed the baton to him and that really gave him a huge leg up in his career. Like it was his big launch really for like the next thing and sure is that. And he's amazing. And so is Kathleen and I just so loved working with them. And so they came on and they came on into, and so we closed early. We started by rehearsing new stuff during the day, folding in at night, rehearsing stuff, and then we ended up closing the show two weeks early and just rehearsing before we took a week off and went to London. Rare is the American Broadway musical that goes to London before Broadway. So, you know what I mean?

[16:46] Joshua Finkel: Yeah, I will tell you first of all, this is the most brilliant marketing way of doing it because as you know, through the current agreement between Actors' Equity and British Actors' Equity, only stars are like a one-on-one exchange can happen. You can't take an entire company. So Garth's business plan, which is bright because Canada is a British province. Hmm. We went up to Canada. We all became Canadian Equity.

[17:13] Richard Bermudez: Oh my gosh.

[17:14] Joshua Finkel: We went and we were under like the Canada health plan, the whole thing for that summer. Then we went as a Canadian Equity company to London because of the door that we all got to go there. Everybody got to go and then we were under London, you know, British Equity while there through Canada. And then we came into New York and changed point of organization and became American Equity. And I was the Equity deputy for all of that. So like I got to help negotiate the album deal and helped it like it was like a lot to kind of learn and read all the different rule books. It was really interesting.

[17:49] Richard Bermudez: Yeah, that's fascinating.

[17:53] Joshua Finkel: He didn't do that same with Ragtime or with Showboat. Do you think there were any negative feelings or kind of distance that he wanted to create from New York critics after having such like a bad round one by going to London, right?

[18:09] Richard Bermudez: I think it was just a way to also build up cred, steam, and buzz.

[18:16] Joshua Finkel: Sure, especially also to squelch, you know, the best going right back in New York.

[18:23] Richard Bermudez: Yeah, exactly. New York thing. And you know, it is, it is having done that show, those three places, having toured the show nationally and then having done the show in India twice and then musical theater guild. I've, and having done a reading of the play as well, it's been very interesting to explore the role and the piece with so many different demographics. A lot of times I felt like in the bigger markets, you know, the theater people come in the first month or two months and it's like, oh my God, this is amazing. Yeah. And then, and then more of like, you know, what we call the bridge and tunnel or the outer lying suburb that you hear about it and the tourists come and like, I heard this a good ticket. Let's go. I don't know what this is about, whatever. Sure, it was, you know.

[19:06] Richard Bermudez: Yeah, yeah.

[19:06] Joshua Finkel: So, and that was like where people would leave like, huh? For me, I'm confused by it or if I have any kind of homophobia or like I didn't know this was in it or, you know, like, yeah, whatever. So, I mean, it was interesting. One of the last spoken lines of the show is, "Tell me the name better. I'll blow your head off." Like that.

[19:28] Richard Bermudez: That's a bumper sticker.

[19:34] Joshua Finkel: Yeah, that's a bumper sticker. This is not, this is not everybody's cup of tea. I would never have my mom come and see the show. Yeah, this is, this is not a Carla show, right? And you were Molina. So it's like, and I was, oh my gosh, I wouldn't, I would never put my mom through that. She almost had a panic attack watching me getting by a plant in Little Shop of Horrors. You think I'm gonna have her watch me as Molina? Absolutely not.

[19:56] Richard Bermudez: New.

[19:56] Joshua Finkel: Which speaking of, let's get this out right away. Okay, half hour into it. We've both played Molina, so there will be a lot of Molina talk here.

[20:02] Richard Bermudez: Yes, I love it.

[20:06] Joshua Finkel: Okay, so London goes well.

[20:08] Richard Bermudez: Yeah, yeah, big hit. And Garth did a beautiful job on the Shaftesbury Theatre. It's kind of a, it's a marquee that sort of sits in a corner, so it wraps around and the whole thing was a spiderweb. It was stunning. I have a picture of it in my wall, actually. I have that at the London marquee. I did, that was magnificent how they did the theater.

[20:24] Joshua Finkel: And how long were you there?

[20:29] Richard Bermudez: Six months to the day because that's how long your travel visa or work visa can be there without like you being penalized or having to roll it over. Day one, day six months and you're gone, later and out.

[20:44] Joshua Finkel: But I'll tell you something that was during, you know, like IRA bombings. Like we had to clear the theater during tech because of a bomb scare.

[20:51] Richard Bermudez: Really?

[20:54] Joshua Finkel: Mm-hmm. We had to like terrify. Please go home and then like tomorrow, please come back. You're clear. It was like, and there was near where I lived, there was a bomb that blew up a pub. It was like, it was a turbulent wild.

[21:08] Richard Bermudez: Mm-hmm.

[21:08] Joshua Finkel: But which it, but it's completely folded into the theme of the show as well. It kept getting reinforced about why we're doing this show, you know, in so many different times, places, events that came through in current events and be like, oh my God, I'm so glad we're doing this show right now to kind of reinforce and echo this message right now of tolerance and of, you know, diversity and all of that, even shining the light on corruption sometimes.

[21:35] Richard Bermudez: Mm-hmm.

[21:35] Joshua Finkel: There are so many themes in this show, which is one of the reasons why I'm so excited to cover it. And I loved what you said because it really goes along with our mission statement of exploring the cultural and emotional impact of these shows. So now we're, you know, early 90s America. What's going on? Like what do you remember being at the heartbeat of the United States during that time the Spider-Woman is getting ready to premiere on Broadway, right?

[22:03] Richard Bermudez: I think it was during the beginning of the Clinton administration or, and it was, there was a tremendous kind of surge of optimism because of people feeling they like the underlying middle class that had been sort of subjugated. And when you think about the Reaganomics coming out of the 80s and so many people were made homeless because of like Wall Street greed and like buying up the entire top of a apartment building and maybe into one big apartment, but like all those ten units, those ten people are they going out in the street? So like right there was kind of a revamping Hillary Clinton's platform on health care and wanted to bring universal health care to everybody was a huge thing that was coming up. So there's all this kind of like amazing optimism and joy in that way. At the same time, you know, you had issues about Guantanamo Bay, you had issues about things happening around the world and how about in terms of LGBTQ rights and AIDS.

[23:06] Joshua Finkel: Was that we talking about it?

[23:10] Richard Bermudez: I, we were talking about it also because at that point, like in '92, there was the cocktail that were so it was saving a lot of people's lives. It was starting to transition from HIV and AIDS being a death sentence to something that was transitioning to a chronic survivable lifestyle. You can do this at Louise. Hey, you know, all that stuff was like really in. And I think that was also part of the optimism as well. So I feel like there was a tolerance and also it had moved out from, let's say early in the Reagan era, like not even mentioning AIDS, not mentioning, you know, the gay cancer and all that stuff that happened at the beginning that's kind of the normal heart is about to it being verbalized to there being a lot of, you know, Keith Haring was way in the public eye by then, silence equals death, like all that stuff, the movement around that was a lot more in the news.

It was a lot more tolerated. So I think there was also more acceptance of this subject matter and who Molina was as a character in society. So people were more wired to come see it. You know what I mean?

[24:20] Joshua Finkel: I love that. I love that a dark show like this is capitalizing on a wave of optimism, truly. The option of having this kind of dark piece that at its center, at its core is this really complex human who happens to be gay is incredibly powerful. And I think that it's really interesting to point out that you need a wave of optimism, a wave of progress in order for that to even be possible.

[24:49] Richard Bermudez: Okay, so yeah, you all open on Broadway.

[24:55] Joshua Finkel: We did. It's an unusual show. So it, what I, I would say like there were still some mixed reviews, but you're a hit and you run a long time. You know the review, the review that made us, God bless you, David Richards was the Sunday Times calendar review or the Arts and Leisure, I should say. I'm like, well, that's the way I like me to say calendars, election, the arts and leisure section. And it was on the front. My listeners are like, what's the newspaper? What's it? Like you stroll through that. So yeah, so, and that was this front page. It was like, I was like a musical struggling to reshape the world.

[25:35] Richard Bermudez: Wow.

[25:40] Joshua Finkel: It put it into a much kind of more profound global important context and really highlighted the performances and all that stuff. And that review kind of washed out any of the mixed reviews from earlier and then we swept the Tonys. We were like, so it was, it was amazing that just consider the journey of what the Toronto process was like. Yeah, it was amazing. When does that ever happen? I mean literally 80% of the show was rewritten. You know what I mean?

[26:09] Richard Bermudez: Yeah.

[26:10] Joshua Finkel: Unprecedented. Yeah, usually when you're on a show and there's that much rewriting getting done, you're like, well, this is all just gonna go in the trash. Looks like we got another rink on our hands.

[26:16] Richard Bermudez: But not the case.

[26:21] Joshua Finkel: Not the case. And I'm surprised, and this is not a new thought, it's always, it jumps up on theater Twitter every like six weeks or so, where's the revival of Kiss of the Spider Woman? Like why hasn't that happened? And it's true. I think that it's a hidden gem that a lot of people don't know about. Something else that's kind of unusual about your original run is that the replacement cast, you know, you had this incredible cast of Anthony Crivello and Brent Carver and Chita Rivera, all of whom won Tony Awards, and then the replacement cast was Howard McGillin, Brian Stokes Mitchell, and Vanessa Williams.

[27:04] Richard Bermudez: Stars, right?

[27:07] Joshua Finkel: All of them and got as good or maybe even better reviews than the original cast. So then you guys record another cast album, right, with that cast? Like something else that hasn't ever really been done in the same run, like not like in the same way. It wasn't a revival, it was just a new cast like a year later.

[27:27] Richard Bermudez: Yeah.

[27:27] Joshua Finkel: Yeah, well, that was also, I mean, that was also the strength of having like Vanessa Williams, who is a recording star, sure, come on in, just like we're doing an album, you know me? It's like, okay, also, like that was a star performance.

[27:34] Richard Bermudez: Absolutely.

[27:43] Joshua Finkel: And Vanessa's just a fantastic person. Like she's so, she's hard-working, she's fun, she's like a great mom. She's like, okay, you know what? Today, tomorrow, she's like, well, I'm recording this track for my new album, I'm running over to do a shoot for Vogue. They want me to do the thing on the spider capes, I'm doing that, and then I'm baking cupcakes for my girls to take to school tomorrow, and then I'm coming to do the show. I'm like, that's crazy.

[28:13] Richard Bermudez: She's, but that's like, she's like, yeah, just doing it, you know?

[28:18] Joshua Finkel: She's full-on and she's so great. She's a great, great person. Obviously not as much of a dancer as say, Chita.

[28:25] Richard Bermudez: Now the funny thing about that, if we're just now, now we're on tour, right? So on tour, Chita and then we're hearing back from pals who are still on Broadway or people that other pals who came in to replace us. Yeah, and when Maria Conchita Alonso came in to follow Vanessa because that's the right thing. Oh, let me also tell you this will be, well, I'll say this and I'll circle back to possible replacements that we were all talking about, like who should be the next Spider-Woman like when we leave before they chose Vanessa. And one of the first choices we thought about was Annie Lennox because she's so versatile. She could hide her. Well, not only that, but she could, she could go, she could wear the white suit and be the kind of Marlena Dietrich. She could be the glamorous because if you think about like Lady Gaga.

[29:12] Joshua Finkel: She becomes all these different identities in her pastiche and in her videos and everything else.

[29:18] Richard Bermudez: Oh my gosh, pause. Did we just put out into the universe a Lady Gaga Kiss of the Spider Woman? Because that might be amazing.

[29:25] Joshua Finkel: And we were also, you know who else we were talking about at the time?

[29:31] Richard Bermudez: Okay, who else?

[29:31] Joshua Finkel: Tina Turner.

[29:33] Richard Bermudez: And I was like, I'm not going on tour if Tina Turner is coming in because I live for Tina Turner and I get to see her eight shows a week and hang with Tina Turner. I'm not going anywhere.

[29:44] Joshua Finkel: I'd throw down because she's gorgeous.

[29:54] Richard Bermudez: Yeah, no, and she has that glamour, but the severity like she could do it.

[29:59] Joshua Finkel: Yeah, kick the crap out of that. But it was interesting to see all the different people that came through. Kander and Ebb really find workhorses that are just, you know, like who love the work.

[30:11] Richard Bermudez: Yeah, it's like getting in the trenches.

[30:14] Joshua Finkel: You know, it's like, yeah, we're all there in our sweats at 7 AM. Let's just do this. Put it together.

[30:20] Richard Bermudez: Yeah, exactly. Oh, that's really beautiful.

[30:22] Joshua Finkel: So all in all, a great experience.

[30:24] Richard Bermudez: Oh, yeah. And the thing that was so interesting to me, because I do develop new musicals all the time. I'm developing two right now.

[30:32] Joshua Finkel: Mm hmm.

[30:33] Richard Bermudez: But my experience, the development process, do this much changes and stuff like that would be with like table reads, music stands, maybe skeletal staging, because like we're just seeing if the mechanics work.

[30:45] Joshua Finkel: We were in this amount of changes. But with that kind of production value, like that much work and that much that's where we're going with the costume design and building rehearsal sets and building rehearsal things. There was that much money into this kind of changing process.

[31:04] Richard Bermudez: So it's all the work, but the stakes of millions of dollars. But here was also the thing, too, which I have this one all another super fond memory of Cheetah from Toronto. So we're like every day at five o'clock, Garth would come and check out the show so far.

[31:22] Joshua Finkel: Producer check.

[31:23] Richard Bermudez: Producer check. But he would bring in anywhere from three to sometimes 30 people with him.

[31:30] Joshua Finkel: Oh, gosh.

[31:30] Richard Bermudez: So literally, we're getting new pages from Terrence in the morning. We're kind of reading it down. Like, what is this? Lightly blocking through it like once or maybe once and a half times. And then let's keep moving. And then at five o'clock, it's like, OK, it's showtime.

[31:49] Joshua Finkel: And Cheetah's like, literally, we're in the day. We've been there since 9:30 in the morning. And she's like, I can't believe I'm putting on lipstick at five o'clock to perform right now. And here was this one chance to have this sort of litmus test like, did that joke work? No, cut it. Rewrite. Let's rehearse this and live with it and go, what is this? The Where You Are number, which was always kind of our party piece, our Tony Award number, our Kennedy Center Honors number, right? That didn't happen until Toronto closed.

[32:20] Richard Bermudez: So that number had been maybe five different numbers before we closed the show, put in Where You Are, and then opened it in London.

[32:30] Joshua Finkel: In London. And then that became kind of our signature piece. So it's very interesting to know all the numbers that were there, maybe sometimes for half a day, sometimes for two days, sometimes for a week before it would change and shift. So I was dazzled by and stunned by the amount of changes at this level of production.

[32:54] Richard Bermudez: And it was complicated, too, in the sense that Hal and, you know, like a lot of times the actors want to go to Terrence and go, what was your intention behind this moment? Like, I'm reading it this way, but I want to know, like, what are you hearing as the scene objective or what's the nuance here? And Hal didn't like us going directly to the playwright. He wanted to kind of be the person to delegate what was happening in this moment.

[33:23] Joshua Finkel: And it got hard. So sadly, like, Terrence ended up being banned from the rehearsal room in Toronto. And it was just kind of coming from Hal. So there was like this weird, like, we're working with Terrence McNally, but we don't have access to him. It was like, we're getting pages from him based on what they wanted. But it was tricky in that way.

[33:43] Richard Bermudez: So, you know, it's fascinating that you say that, because when you read the script, and we're going to go through it next, the words are brilliant. You know, like, there's a lot of great scenes, but there's not a lot on the page in terms of answering questions about...

[34:03] Joshua Finkel: Context.

[34:04] Richard Bermudez: Exactly. In the monologue, before, yeah.

[34:08] Joshua Finkel: I was going to say, or even like, who is who, and is it reality or not?

[34:13] Richard Bermudez: Right, are we in a dream state? Are we in a weird hallucination right now? Is this real? So never has there been a show that needs a strong director more than this show. And I wonder if on some level, Hal realized that, or at least wanted all of the control of that, so that there weren't lots of opinions about all of these different questions that naturally come up with a really unorthodox show like Kiss of the Spider Woman.

[34:43] Joshua Finkel: The thing I got to learn about Hal, who I adore, like, I think he's just...

[34:49] Richard Bermudez: Legend!

[34:50] Joshua Finkel: Well, he's also just like a warm guy. God rest him. He's such a warm guy. I love Hal. He's just a great person. But I felt like Hal learned to direct the show a lot better once he had seen it play in front of an audience. I think in directing it pre-audience and just kind of being on its own, like a lot of times, his system was, I'm going to cast this really well, and then let y'all do it. So you follow your instincts. I cast you for your instincts or what I sense about who you are to play this, and let me see y'all come up with stuff. Like what you do. And it was a lot of that.

[35:34] Richard Bermudez: So at times, people were kind of in their own play, like, you're in your play. You're in your play. And I see that you're in your play. You're doing your thing. You're doing your thing. It's like, what's our thing? And so, and in a book that is less direct, that can be tricky.

[35:51] Joshua Finkel: Confusing.

[35:52] Richard Bermudez: A lot of times, it would be like, I don't know what this is, but let's keep playing it and answer our own questions more than it was being delegated from the top. So that was hard too, and especially with the removal of the playwright to get like direct answers about context. So it was really like, we were a little floating out there with, you know, like cut them loose on the castaways raft. And it's like you and Wilson just floating out there at sea.

[36:19] Joshua Finkel: So it was a little like that at times.

[36:22] Richard Bermudez: Oh my gosh, that's fascinating. So we had a lot to figure out, but we did. We loved each other and we trusted each other. So I think that's what really, you know, helped with that a lot.

[36:32] Joshua Finkel: Interesting.

[36:32] Richard Bermudez: Okay. That's fascinating.

[36:34] Joshua Finkel: Isn't it? And it still turned out, and that's when we like swept the Tony Awards. We're like, how did this even happen? It's incredible. I was like, well, God bless us everyone, you know?

[36:44] Richard Bermudez: Right? Right? Theater gods.

[36:46] Joshua Finkel: Yes. Okay, this is a show that like we've talked about doesn't get done very much. And yet for some strange reason, I've done it twice. The first time I did it, I got to be honest, every time the show would begin. And I was in the ensemble and one of the prisoners.

[37:04] Richard Bermudez: Where'd you do it?

[37:05] Joshua Finkel: This was in LA. Great production. And every time it would start, I would have this question to myself. It was like my little tradition of saying, what is this show? I literally had no idea. I feel so confident. What is this? I really had no idea what I was doing. And some of that may be like the meaty scenes are just, you know, Molina and Valentine. And so we're providing texture. And I don't think it was really explained to us much about what we were adding texture to. Anyway, and with a show that is kind of sprawling. I felt like it was it could have been and often was something new for me every single night.

[37:47] Richard Bermudez: Yeah.

[37:48] Joshua Finkel: The second time I did it as Molina, then I was like, oh, that's what this show is about for me. And I got really specific with it. So I'm excited to go through it with you because maybe we'll be able to help everybody listening also understand.

[38:04] Richard Bermudez: Help pin it down.

[38:05] Joshua Finkel: Help pin it. Let's pin this down. So in terms of setting, we're talking Argentina, right? In a very corrupt prison of some kind.

[38:16] Richard Bermudez: I would say yes, but it also applied to Cuba. It also applied to Brazil and also applied as we were doing some. That's also I understand why I wanted to make it more of general Latin American countries because a lot of this stuff was happening in multiple places.

[38:31] Joshua Finkel: And so I'm excited to go through it with you. Because a lot of this stuff was happening in multiple places.

[38:37] Richard Bermudez: I'm sure. I'm sure. It's very universal.

[38:41] Joshua Finkel: But I used Argentina for myself as well.

[38:43] Richard Bermudez: I did.

[38:44] Joshua Finkel: Yeah. There are other references in the script that let us know we're there. I think what's also interesting is that Hal Prince had directed Evita, right?

[38:54] Richard Bermudez: Yeah.

[38:54] Joshua Finkel: If there are those that are not fans of Peronism and the Perons in general, this is the show that is more indicting of some of the dark times of Argentinian history than say Evita, which just tends to focus on this like virgin or whore type scenario of whether or not it was a good idea.

[39:17] Richard Bermudez: We can call this Che2.

[39:18] Joshua Finkel: We just call it Che2. So we're kind of looking at some of the corruption that can happen in governments and how that trickles down into incarcerations. At this particular prison, we've got Molina. How long has he been there when we meet him?

[39:36] Richard Bermudez: I'm trying to remember.

[39:39] Joshua Finkel: Three years?

[39:43] Richard Bermudez: It's a significant amount of time. And the way that he got to prison was he was at a cafe. Somebody was cruising him and said, like, let's go hook up in the bathroom. And so he follows him. The guy is like an undercover cop, and they don't actually do anything. But the charge becomes solicitation of a minor, and he gets thrown in jail.

[40:10] Joshua Finkel: And the guy wasn't a minor.

[40:12] Richard Bermudez: And he wasn't even a minor. And he wasn't even a minor. And he was an undercover cop. And Molina says, you know, this guy has smiled at me, and men like me don't get smiled at a lot. But he kept smiling, and so I followed him right into a trap. It's so well written. And that's what has brought this man who, number one, doesn't belong in jail, but number two, was not built for these conditions. Like, this is a sensitive guy, an incredibly artistic person. He's a window dresser at a department store.

[40:39] Joshua Finkel: He takes great pride.

[40:42] Richard Bermudez: The main store and one of the top ones.

[40:46] Joshua Finkel: That's right. He's at Bloomingdale's.

[40:51] Richard Bermudez: He's not at Sears. You know what I mean? And in order to deal, in order to not die, his survival mechanism is escapism, which is one of the other great themes of this show, is the power of escapism, which theater provides so much. But he retreats in his mind to all of these different films that were starring one woman by the name of Aurora.

[41:19] Joshua Finkel: Yeah, she's this Argentinian star.

[41:24] Richard Bermudez: You can think of her as like an old Rita Hayward.

[41:26] Joshua Finkel: Like Gilda or whatever.

[41:27] Richard Bermudez: Yeah, exactly. Femme Fatale. And he has every one of her films memorized, and so he will retreat into these films, sometimes while he's being raped by a guard, sometimes when people are being tortured next door. They help him escape and survive.

[41:47] Joshua Finkel: That's right. And that has brought, and correct me if you think I'm wrong, it has brought a certain degree of delusion to his existence. He is walking around very disconnected from himself and the world. And so when he gets a new cellmate, and this cellmate is a super machismo revolutionary type man.

[42:11] Richard Bermudez: And let's just pause right there.

[42:13] Joshua Finkel: Most of the time, he's been in solitary.

[42:16] Richard Bermudez: Thank you.

[42:17] Joshua Finkel: So his only visitation is raped by the guards, beaten, teased, whatever, tortured, to whatever degree. Probably not as badly tortured as some of the political prisoners.

[42:28] Richard Bermudez: Sure.

[42:29] Joshua Finkel: More of a sexual way, and a lot of it has been... Emotionally, mentally.

[42:33] Richard Bermudez: Mentally, and then being alone. So who are you going to talk to? What are you going to do? How are you going to occupy your mind? Probably to himself. I'd be like, I'm going to go into my favorite movie, and just be in the tropics, or be in whatever, in this nightclub, and get through. I mean, I certainly did that through much of my growing up, with like throwing out my cast albums in my room, and singing, and being in a movie, being in The Wizard of Oz, or whatever the hell. You know, it's like, yeah, for sure.

[43:00] Richard Bermudez: That's gorgeous. And so when his cellmate comes in, which his name's Valentin, and he's been badly beaten, I think he's ecstatic, because this is like his new best friend. But he doesn't take into consideration all of the damage that he's bringing along with these three years of being in prison. And he can't understand why on earth Valentin wouldn't like him, even though he won't shut up. And you know, there's also like, you should be able to listen to me, because I kind of nourished you back to health. I helped you wake up based on when you were unconscious for two days, I tended to your wounds, and I kind of like, you know, put compresses on your head.

[43:48] Joshua Finkel: It seems like every time he does something like that, every time he is nurturing or caring, it's because he is tapping into his Aurora energy. And the first number, which is called "Her Name is Aurora," is this kind of sexy tango in which she sings about meeting the love of her life. She turns around and the love of her life is there, right? She goes to a fortune teller, the gypsy, and the gypsy says, you'll turn around and the love of your life will be there. You'll hear a sharp piercing sound and you'll turn around and the love of your life will be there. Now, of course, the interesting thing there is that this man, Molina, has turned around and this man who's been beaten and shrieking, of course, has been thrown into his cell.

So once Valentin is back up and going, Molina created a relationship with him while Valentin was unconscious. So he has this whole idea of what their dynamic is. I take care of you. Everything is great. You love me because I take care of you. And Valentin has no idea because he was unconscious the entire time. But there's also a really, really important immediate sort of trifecta obstacle that happens at the end of that exact same sequence. When he first, like Valentin, screams and awakens after two days of being unconscious, the sharp piercing sound and it brings Molina back into the cell and the movie goes away. But the end of that thing and he says, my name is Molina. You can trust me. And then we see the warden say, I do, Molina.

I trust you completely. So we know that he's an informant through the warden to get information about the revolution from Valentin. That's why they're put together by the warden. That's the only reason he has a cellmate or why the warden chose him to be the cellmate is because the warden knows he can manipulate Molina into getting this information. And Molina will probably fall in love with this guy. Again, like from Manuel Puig whispering into Hal's ear, it's about manipulation.

[46:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: All right. Let's take a little break from my conversation with Mr. Finkel to welcome another guest, personal favorite of mine. He was most recently seen as Che in "Evita" at the Drury Lane Theater in Chicago and won the San Diego Critics Award for his portrayal of Valentin in "Kiss of the Spider Woman." No doubt because of our super hot makeout sessions every night. Please welcome the amazing Richard Bermudez.

[46:24] Richard Bermudez: Yes. Hi, Richard.

[46:26] Richard Bermudez: Hi, Jeffrey. Thank you for having me.

[46:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh my gosh. I'm almost embarrassed that you introduced me as the winner of that award because if ever there was an award that is truly should be split in half, it is "Kiss of the Spider Woman." But yeah, we'll get into that.

[46:42] Richard Bermudez: You are very kind. You absolutely deserved it. And I wasn't even nominated. Now, first of all, before we start talking about this, and I know it feels a little like a self-aggrandizing to invite my co-star from the production that I was in on my show, but I promise that this has good intentions, everybody. But I do want to give shout outs to Joshua Carr and Ray Lamone, who were producer director of our production, and were both crazy and brilliant enough to produce it in one of the more conservative counties in Southern California, let alone the Lawrence Welk Theater. In one of the most conservative theaters you could possibly imagine.

[47:25] Richard Bermudez: Right? So yeah. And of course I'm biased, but I feel like it was a really special production and it went over well. But honestly, one of the reasons it was special to me is because sometimes we had like six people in the audience. Like not kidding. And it never felt defeating to me because number one, we were still given in our all. And number two, because living in this show, in this story, in these characters comes with its own set of demons and blessings that were really game changing for me. And I think I can say for you as well, and you and I got to go through all of that together in our dressing room. So I feel like a conversation about this show has to include that part of it. What can we gain as artists from living inside of it?

[48:19] Richard Bermudez: Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad we're having this discussion because I feel like it's long overdue and just kind of cathartically for me just to kind of, you know, see where you are with some of the, how you felt about the process, because it was really, really, really, really amazing for me. I always tell people, I don't know if you ever play that game in musical theater where you always try to name a show that you've been in that nobody else has done, you know, to kind of win that imaginary game. And I always, you know, trot out "Kiss of the Spider Woman" because then I usually can win with that because hardly anyone has done that show. And I can speak pretty confidently that, you know, in the 20 plus odd years that I've been doing musical theater here in Southern California, I'm only aware of two professional regional productions that have been done. And I find it amazing that you were in both those productions.

[49:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Both of them. How the freak did that happen?

[49:05] Richard Bermudez: Yeah. And so I was just thinking back about it. I'm like, my goodness, what a headstart you had with this material and going into it and how that must have kind of informed your process, because I came in into it as a total neophyte. I didn't know the material. I just kind of threw myself into it as such a student. And I was so excited to delve into it because I think on some level I kind of intuitively knew that what I was doing was very special and I might not ever get the opportunity to do it again. But, you know, where were you at when we first started that process?

[49:35] Richard Bermudez: It's funny. I talked with Joshua Finkel a little earlier about, if anything, I was really excited to be like, okay, what is this show actually? And I felt like I discovered it in the performing of it, which is to say it was the most terrifying experience I've ever had in my life on stage. I was constantly scared. And I'm so grateful for it. It almost brings tears to my eyes now to think of how vulnerable this show made me feel about my own life.

[50:12] Joshua Finkel: Hmm. Yeah.

[50:16] Richard Bermudez: The thing that immediately bubbled up once I got in front of an audience was all of the shame about, you know, especially when you're like a song and dance man, the biggest cardinal sin is to not let an audience think you're gay, because you have to marry the girl at the end, you know? And I think all of us who have been in that position, we know the artistic directors of theaters who love flirting with the boys, and then also snidely saying that so and so can't butch it up for a role, you know, at the same time, and how much that preyed on my insecurities. But it wasn't like "The Full Monty," where you get to be a gay character and be lovable. I also wanted to have the courage to be a little unlikable at the beginning.

And I, as I'm saying this out loud, it like sounds so shallow. But to let those colors shine through was very scary for me personally. I would say after I would get done with the show, I have a vulnerability hangover. Like I felt like I had exposed too much. And I remember having I don't know if you remember this, but I remember having conversations with you about like, not wanting to go out the stage door or the regular door, because I didn't want to see people. Because the minute that I would see them, I would start like, what did they think of it? Oh, they hated it. They hated me, right? Because I had reached my cap of vulnerability. I'm like, I can't take any more. And what's crazy, and what "Spider Woman" taught me is that the only cure for a vulnerability hangover, and this is so rude, is more vulnerability.

That the only way for me to push through that fog was to open myself up even more and allow love in. And I'll never forget, there was this one show and I took my I still took my time leaving the theater because maybe then most of the people would have left and I wouldn't drive myself crazy trying to guess what they actually thought of it. And I walked out and there was this older couple standing there. And I could tell that they were had been waiting for me. And so I walked up to them and said hi. And this old man, like, kind of broke down a little bit. And he said, I just wanted to let you know that my son killed himself not long ago. I can't remember how long it was. And watching you today felt like you gave me back my son for a couple of hours.

Because like the son and Molina, I think had a lot in common. And so then I gave him a hug. And I couldn't even believe that. But sometimes the strength or the courage, two things that are really talked about, I think in this show, and I learned personally, sometimes that is not only not only comes from what we are able to share, but sometimes 10 times more what we're able to receive.

[53:36] Joshua Finkel: Yeah, yeah. Now, I also will say that like going into it, everybody kept on saying, Oh, my gosh, you get to kiss Richard Bermudez. Because for those who don't know, Richard's a very pretty guy. And he constantly has a shirt off in every musical that I don't know why it is, but including this one, I did right, including this. So I was also going into it, like, I am going to be very professional. And I'm going to let this straight boy find his groove in this character. And first day of rehearsal, you grabbed me and planted one right on my lips. So like, kudos to you, Richard Bermudez, I will always love you for that.

[54:10] Richard Bermudez: Well, it's interesting you say that, because we we didn't really we knew each other, and we'd actually done a show together years before. But, you know, it was either going to make us hate each other or love each other. Totally going into it. And I was obviously, you know, hoping for the latter. And so I wanted to dispel with any awkwardness from day one. And please, Jeffrey, like you are very easy on the eyes. I had no problem as a straight man kissing you at all. And so I wanted to kind of like set the tone from from day one that, you know, that that wasn't an issue whatsoever. And so yeah, yeah, that's kind of where I was.

[54:52] Richard Bermudez: It is a show that obviously takes place in a prison that has a very like the candor and I was even listening to it on the way to record today. Even just like the blink, blink, blink, blink, you know, the different chords and stuff are so scary and evocative and kind of put you right back there. What was all of that like for you?

[55:11] Richard Bermudez: Well, the word that kind of always jumped out to me was juxtaposition, because the show is such a show of extremes. You know, you have torture, you have a horrible human degradation, and then a big flashy, glitzy Broadway number, and you kind of go back and forth from the cycle of the two. And even with our characters, I thought of that dichotomy that, you know, you have this masculine archetype of manliness and that South American machismo, which, which, you know, I'm probably pretty well acquainted with being a South American myself. And then you had that juxtapose with Molina's character, who, you know, was all about his desire, or at least for me, the way it tracked in my head was his desire to love and to be loved, which other than his relationship with his mother, I don't think he'd ever really experienced up to that.

[56:06] Joshua Finkel: No, absolutely not. And so for me, it was these two sides, but to me, they were the same coin. And to me were the framework that I started out with is that these two guys are incomplete humans, but together they do make a fully formed human. But but as far as that, that fear that you had, I mean, because, you know, my, my character was all about not showing fear. And that really, really resonated for me. Because for me personally, I mean, I think I spent the first 30 years of my life trying to project some sort of image of what I wanted people to, to see and what I thought would be pleasing to people. And, and, you know, it kind of took the heartache of a difficult dissolution to my first marriage and kind of stepping away from theater for a couple years, because I don't know if you recall, from 2010 through 12, I didn't do anything.

[57:02] Richard Bermudez: Yeah, that's true.

[57:08] Joshua Finkel: And coming back to it, you know, I was really able to just kind of to let go of that anxiety and that fear, and to allow myself to be vulnerable without the worry of the judgment.

[57:14] Richard Bermudez: And that we have so much in common.

[57:22] Joshua Finkel: Absolutely. Yeah. But that to me really resonated for me in that character. Because, you know, I was kind of looking through some of the lines that I had. And he has a moment where he kind of realizes the torture, the insipid torture that he's going to receive, and he starts shaking. And he says, you know, look how pathetic I am, because I'm shaking in fear. And later on in the show, when he loses his bowels, which we can talk about that, because that was an interesting experience. You know, he, you know, he talks about, you know, how, how, how pathetic he is, you know, and how ashamed he is. And to me, that whole feeling of shame, you know, is something that, you know, I grew up in a very fractured home.

My mother left at a very early age. And, you know, I was blessed with a pretty intelligent, at least a little academic inclination. And so that was my way to prop myself up and feel equal with my peers. But it was all about hiding that shame and feelings of inadequacy and trying to project an

[58:25] Joshua Finkel: Yeah, there is a moment in the show that to this day kind of still haunts me and it's a statement that Molina would say to Valentin at the end and it's where he's, Valentin is touching Molina for the first time. Mm-hmm and Molina's first reaction is that, you know, I don't want your pity and right and Valentin says no, I'm doing this because I want to and slowly Molina allows himself to, I mean first he asked for permission to touch Valentin's face. Consent, people, it's important even Valentin understands that. He says to him you can do whatever you want with me because I want you to. That line every night just, because the weight of that sat and what it meant for another human to say that to you and it's a responsibility, it really is and that's true and to be that vulnerable.

That was the moment where I had to decide if loving this human versus whatever dedication to whatever ideals and ideology I had going into it, what was most important to me? Hmm. And it was something that just, that tore me apart every night and my heart bled for you every night. Yeah, but it was just one of those moments in my theater career that I will always remember because it was just very, very impactful and very real and very raw.

[1:00:14] Richard Bermudez: So raw.

[1:00:16] Joshua Finkel: Another great word for this show. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that my gosh. I also remember how much like that fueled, we rarely talked about what went on stage when we got back to the dressing room. It wasn't, oh, did you see when this happened or blah blah blah blah blah? We would like get off stage and be like, so tell me about your childhood, you know? And like how cool is that with that? It showed me that these moments of connection on stage were fueling actual connection and not just like egoic experiences. Does that, do you know, does that do you connect to that?

[1:00:59] Joshua Finkel: Well, it just made everything that much more real for me. I, we were in, it was weird because that, you know, we had what, 18, 19 people in that show, but it really felt like it just, it was a two-person show even though ostensibly, you know, that, you know, Aurora has a big character as well. But you know, we were isolated in our own little dressing room. We're on stage 99% of the time together. We're offstage together. I mean, we're in this little insular bubble and, and you know, and honestly, I thought it was kind of cool the fact that there were like six people in the audience at times because I knew what we were doing was certainly not for the thunders applause. Yeah, it was something that we were doing for ourselves in such a kind of surreal atmosphere and this, you know, leisure world type environment and, you know, I'll be forever grateful to Ray and Josh and the well crab and the courage to do that, you know, without concern about whether it's gonna be commercial or not.

And that's the thing that always breaks my heart, you know, I think that's what it boils down to is that most people don't do this show because it's very dark and it's not considered commercial but oh my word is the score and the script so good. So good, you know, it's the only Kander and Ebb show that I've done and may be the only one that I do because a lot of them are, you know, big song and dance type shows and, you know, I'm a park and bark tech guy, but no, you'd be a great Billy Flynn. Come on.

[1:02:27] Richard Bermudez: Well, the truth is I don't want to work that hard. I want to, but honestly, I don't know if I could do the show again if it came around. I mean, I probably would because I do love it. But yeah, you, but, but it would never, it would never be that, it would never be the same.

[1:02:46] Joshua Finkel: Well, I don't think I should probably do it again. First of all, because I'm not Latino. But I'm grateful for the opportunity that that it provided me to do it and I think you're absolutely right. I think that art can be a microcosm of our lives and just like Molina needs Valentin and vice versa to become a fully formed human being, I feel like the experiences that we were able to go through together left me feeling more fully formed than I had been before. So thank you for that.

[1:03:24] Richard Bermudez: No, my pleasure anytime and if anybody out there wants to cast us in falsettos, please do before we get too old.

[1:03:39] Joshua Finkel: Like you said, the warden is constantly trying to get information from Valentin via Molina and he has now upped the ante by revealing that Molina's mother is sick, that she's about to die and that if Valentin can give Molina the name of the girlfriend of Marta, that Molina could maybe go see the mom. So now this trust is being challenged in maybe the hardest way for Molina because his mother's being brought into it.

[1:04:15] Richard Bermudez: Yeah.

[1:04:15] Joshua Finkel: And that's really, it's like putting Molina really up against the ropes. You have to really choose like this is the dearest most important thing to me and I have not actually spoken to her in three years.

[1:04:26] Richard Bermudez: No, that's such a, that's such a great point. Thank you for pointing that out.

[1:04:30] Joshua Finkel: Now, so many great songs. We're just gonna hit some of these dressing them up is my big, you know, big charm song. That's absolutely what it is in which he explains his passions, you know, here's who I am. This is what I do.

[1:04:47] Richard Bermudez: Absolutely.

[1:04:47] Joshua Finkel: Valentin responds by saying shut up. Will you ever shut up? And he draws a line on the cell, right? The dirt floor of the cell and says that is your side. This is mine. Don't talk to me. Don't ever cross this line unless you have to go to the bathroom.

[1:05:01] Richard Bermudez: Which I have to go to the bathroom. I have to go to the bathroom like okay, that's an exception.

[1:05:04] Joshua Finkel: It's like, oh, you know, we talked I'm glad you brought up the bathroom because I feel like this musical was forward-thinking in many regards and we've talked about some of them but the one that we haven't talked about is poop because there is a, there's so much bathroom in this musical and finally, you know, finally musical theater went number two.

[1:05:26] Richard Bermudez: So.

[1:05:27] Joshua Finkel: Before we get there though, gorgeous song, gorgeous quartet called dear one in and this is I think one of the first times where we see how these two cellmates are the same, right? They both have loves of their lives. Molina, it's his mother for Valentin, it's Marta and this song is upscale and a bourgeois and so against his whole like, he's like, I know I'm a total frickin, you know, like hypocrite.

[1:06:02] Richard Bermudez: Exactly, the heart wants what it wants, right?

[1:06:02] Joshua Finkel: So, but the great thing about dear one is that it's not just a love song about your loved one. It's about, in a way, a backwards escapism of saying, you know, I don't think about you. I don't care that much and then the end of every verse is, you know, maybe I'll believe that lie someday. If you just know again, it's like it's the mantra of like if you think about solitary, like what am I saying to myself? Like what movie am I retracing? What am I, how am I not going crazy or not becoming a victim of this torture, mental torture, isolation torture, all the different things?

[1:06:35] Richard Bermudez: Yeah. Yeah.

[1:06:36] Joshua Finkel: So beautiful, it's a beautiful quartet. It really is. It's a stunning song.

[1:06:41] Richard Bermudez: I think Molina is seriously contemplating this and he's going along with the Warden's requests. Well, he's playing both ends against the middle. Molina's smart too.

[1:06:56] Joshua Finkel: Yeah, so if he, you know, he keeps like, well, I have, you know, I think we just need, you know, some better food and once he starts to feel stronger, he'll be able to, so he's like bringing in chickens and saying that his mother, he tells Valentin his mother's cooking and bringing all this stuff when you were, when you were being interrogated, my mother visited. She never did. The Warden is getting all this food in and so they're like, you know, upping their lifestyle. They're upping their food and all of that is the Warden's long game to get Valentin to confess and give the name to Molina.

[1:07:27] Richard Bermudez: I love the way that you said that. So Molina is both going along with the Warden but also improving Valentin's life because of it.

[1:07:40] Joshua Finkel: Yeah, counter punching by like saying, oh, I need two more chickens and I need this and I need some guys from so-and-so.

[1:07:46] Richard Bermudez: Yeah, exactly. And they're bringing it to him. Give us the best food. Give us.

[1:07:52] Joshua Finkel: I don't think Molina really has a long game here at some point. He's good, you know, but for them in the meantime, a moment.

[1:08:01] Richard Bermudez: Yeah, he's working both sides of this.

[1:08:01] Joshua Finkel: Yeah, and I think that that is really great that this is where where you are comes in because in many ways he is negating the future of these decisions and while there are tortured prisoners and screams happening all around him and Valentin is scared and saying do we need to help these people? Molina says look buddy, this is how I've survived here and he brings up the Aurora energy. Yeah, she says you learn from me. You should, yeah, you need to learn to do this too. When I, I look but I will not see. I will not actually look at the prisoner. I will see them. I was like not so I don't get hit. I'll pretend I'm looking but I'm gonna be seeing a movie in my head instead of actually seeing this beaten prisoners face so that it doesn't affect me and I don't confess something right at the same time. I have a survival.

[1:09:01] Richard Bermudez: That's his strength.

[1:09:01] Joshua Finkel: Like it's, and it's a message directly from Aurora, right? She has this great song. You've got to learn how not to be where you are.

[1:09:06] Richard Bermudez: Yeah, yeah.

[1:09:06] Joshua Finkel: And this is a turning moment for Valentin because I think he starts to gain some sort of comfort from these stories and from the, you know, all of the Aurora movies that Molina is sharing to the point where throughout the show, he keeps getting more and more and more invested in this obsession of his and what's really great is that Molina does learn the name pretty early on because Valentin, you know, talks in his sleep. We too, of course know Marta's name because Valentin sings this gorgeous song called Marta, a beautiful song that a lot of people don't know.

[1:09:38] Richard Bermudez: The one thing that Molina is really scared of though and that his obsession with Aurora only makes worse is that there was a character that she played called the spider woman and this character was the embodiment of death.

[1:09:52] Joshua Finkel: Yeah, that when she entered and kissed someone, that person died. That was the movie and age to even kids and when he was a five-year-old watching, yes, it freaked him out because he saw another five-year-old die in this movie with her and so even though he's obsessed with her and he's also terrified of this one character who he sees all over the place, of course in a terrible prison like this.

[1:10:21] Richard Bermudez: That's the one, that's the one time you could think like, oh like is he a little cuckoo? Like is he actually delusional?

[1:10:26] Joshua Finkel: Exactly. I'm choosing to see this movie. It's like I really do see the spider woman. I, she is here. I've seen her.

[1:10:34] Richard Bermudez: 100, yes, absolutely. And of course, do you blame him?

[1:10:40] Joshua Finkel: No, no. But there is a, there's a lot going on inside him as well, right? And, and this is where I think the direction really comes in because now that we've met Aurora and all of her characters and then we also have Aurora as the spider woman, right? Differentiating between the two and knowing when it's the spider woman and when it's not can be somewhat confusing or when it's Aurora.

[1:11:05] Richard Bermudez: Aurora or Aurora in a movie like, oh, well, there's two things.

[1:11:09] Joshua Finkel: There's two things that help with that. Number one is costuming that every time the spider woman character is there, she is in some sort of web-based clothing as well as web-based.

[1:11:20] Richard Bermudez: A web-based garment.

[1:11:27] Joshua Finkel: Yes. WPG. Put on your WPG cheetah, I've got to get out there. Yeah, it's a cheaty.

[1:11:33] Richard Bermudez: Conchita, you throw on those like 25 pound wings on your back. Let's get.

[1:11:37] Joshua Finkel: So, and plus the sort of the phantom-like thing.

[1:11:42] Richard Bermudez: Yeah, there's that, that cadence is also a theme.

[1:11:49] Joshua Finkel: Yeah, but what I also love about the spider woman is that everything she ever speaks about is I will bring you peace, all the pain will cease. Just kiss me, give in. It's alluring, it is, it's a release. It's like welcoming, it's like stop fighting and stop living in your pain. Let it go, you know? And so there is something that's still very arousing and sensual and less like intent. It's also like you can't escape it like death and taxes. I'm the death part. You can't escape me. But at the same time, I just know it's a pretty fantastic and kind of orgasmic. It's gonna be amazing.

[1:12:27] Richard Bermudez: Yeah.

[1:12:28] Joshua Finkel: But he's scared of it. He's terrified, worse terrified of his mortality, right?

[1:12:32] Richard Bermudez: Yeah, scared of his mortality and scared from him is five years old and saw that instantaneous, you know, taking of life like oh my god, it's that quick, you know, and it scared the hell out of him.

[1:12:43] Joshua Finkel: So let's talk through the poisoning section really quick. So the warden steps things up and decides that he's going to poison Valentin through this like stew, right? Sort of meal. It's always been, oh, it's the beans. You're right. Beans and that he's gonna get so sick that they're going to need to give him morphine.

[1:13:01] Joshua Finkel: And on the morphine, he'll then be... He'll talk and get delirious and happy and talk. He won't have any of that energy to withhold information. The first time, Molina ends up taking the food because of this kind of funny back and forth. He knows it's poison, so he just, you know, eats a tiny bit, but still it's enough to send him to the infirmary. He gets put on morphine and has several kind of hallucinations, one of which is with his mother, in this beautiful moment where she sings, "You Could Never Shame Me," which makes me think that maybe he never heard that, if he's visualizing that way. Also, he gets a visit from Spider Woman, and he's terrified because here it comes. This is my death. At the very end, she says, but not yet. This isn't your time to go. Then when he goes back into the prison after being in the infirmary...

[1:14:00] Joshua Finkel: Poison part two. Valentin gets poisoned, but he silences him. He gets incontinent, things are happening, and then he passes out. They go into "I Do Miracles." He does not let Valentin go to the infirmary. He says, no, he's fine, he's fine, and covers for him. He basically goes through the poisoning in the cell with Molina healing him and sourced by Aurora and Valentin thinking of Marta. "I Do Miracles" is a way to heal that without going to the infirmary and not going on morphine and rambling his mouth off and informing everybody while under morphine in the infirmary. Meanwhile, all the guards are expecting Valentin to be sick, and he's like, nope, he's totally fine. I've just cleaned up his messes that he made.

We changed his undies, and everything's fine. All of this caring for Valentin has really sent Molina into complete love. How could it not when you're able to help someone like this? There's a beautiful song, "She's a Woman," where Molina is jealous of Marta, this woman who Valentin is in love with, wishing that he were her. She's a rich woman, so it's like the same sort of Hollywood glamour that Aurora is probably in Marta's life story, how he visualizes Marta to live with her money with the shiny black floor and the beautiful boa.

[1:15:24] Joshua Finkel: Absolutely. Out of that and how we close the first act is Valentin still struggling, but now it's Valentin asking to hear a story. Together, they're focusing on Aurora in this bird-of-paradise number in which- The bird in the golden cage, that's right. Yeah. The trapped bird. We end the first act with Molina and Valentin being on the same page of they are in each other's arms trying to console each other in this crazy situation. Act two begins. We really get to spend a lot of act two really enjoying this new friendship between Molina and Valentin and them celebrating the stories of Aurora and the films. Molina has shared so much of himself that then Valentin feels that he needs to share some of himself as well.

Molina's very scared about that because he doesn't want to have that information for fear that he might be tortured into giving it, but Valentin really wants to share that part of himself. He sings "The Day After That," which is a glorious anthem about revolution.

[1:16:39] Richard Bermudez: And his beginnings, like where he started and what his home life was like and-

[1:16:42] Joshua Finkel: Yeah, now we get his backstory. What brought him to the revolution.

[1:16:45] Richard Bermudez: Amen. 100%. There is absolutely a reason that he became the revolutionary that he is. We also get "Mom, It's Me," which is the phone call from Molina to his mother because-

[1:16:59] Joshua Finkel: And he hears how sick she is. That is the truth. Because the warden really is laying it on thick to get what he wants, so much so that Molina is allowed to leave. Now, he's going to be leaving the prison. Same thing out.

[1:17:18] Richard Bermudez: And the warden, we know, has, of course, orchestrated this so that Valentin will get him to do something, right?

[1:17:27] Joshua Finkel: We deliver a message for me. Call somebody. They can follow Molina and bust everybody. The last night before Molina leaves, there's this moment where Valentin realizes, if I have sex with him, I know he's in love with me. Most likely, I could get him to do anything. And Molina, on his end, agrees. He's at the place now where they have become so close that he would probably do anything for him. It's a great trio with the Spider Woman looming over. They're all in their own soliloquies about their choices and what they're going to do, and I would do anything for him. It's like you would do anything for me. And the inevitable doom that will ensue because of it. They connect, and they go all the way. And I know that we can say that it's just manipulation, but it probably wouldn't happen if Valentin wasn't into it a little bit.

[1:18:26] Richard Bermudez: That's why I'm saying I don't think it's just that. I think that's an element of it, but I also feel that there's a tremendous respect and connection between them now.

[1:18:37] Joshua Finkel: And understanding. They really understand each other. They may not agree with everything, but they really get each other, and they appreciate each other. They know what each of them has brought to the table and done for each other. And that, I think, is also what is there. What's gorgeous about this show is that this moment that is manipulation and love and sex all mixed together, the song is the title song, "Kiss of the Spider Woman," sung by the Spider Woman.

[1:19:07] Richard Bermudez: During the sex, like during the time.

[1:19:09] Joshua Finkel: During it. It's so artistically brilliant because sex tends to be a creation process, if not a child, then at least love. And so to have someone essentially singing a death sentence while it's happening. It's also a crossing point. Gives me the chills. Once you've crossed this over, you're at a different place in your relationship than before. You can't go back. You cannot escape. You're caught in the web. You cannot escape. You can run. You can hide, but you cannot escape. So Molina, I mean, he's sold. He is going to be doing exactly the bidding that Valentin wants him to. He leaves. He goes to make a call. He makes the call to Marta, and Molina just basically says, I just want you to know that he's alive. I think he's like, he's well. He's a lot. Like, I think he's, and he says, he also says a code word. The eagle has landed or some kind of code word. But she doesn't know.

[1:20:03] Richard Bermudez: Do you think she's lying?

[1:20:06] Joshua Finkel: Once again, not on the page, people. It's on the page, and obviously, and the call is cut off because after three sentences, Molina is captured. And taken back to the prison and vehemently tortured. And we don't know really ultimately what happens to Valentin.

[1:20:24] Richard Bermudez: No.

[1:20:24] Joshua Finkel: Well, and I was just going to say, we don't know if that did anything.

[1:20:28] Richard Bermudez: Right.

[1:20:29] Joshua Finkel: Because like you said, Molina gets taken back to the prison, brutally beaten, tossed in front of Valentin, and has a gun pointed at his head. And now the warden is saying, all right, tell me the girl's name or Molina dies. One of the most harrowing scenes in musical theater. It's so filled with tension and tragedy and also this bravery that Molina has never experienced before in his life. And demands that he does not talk. Demands no matter what happens, he does not talk. Don't you dare say her name or else everything. I've worked for it.

[1:21:09] Richard Bermudez: Oh, I'm like, I'm going back there and getting emotional.

[1:21:12] Joshua Finkel: Everything that I've done won't mean a thing, you know?

[1:21:16] Richard Bermudez: Right.

[1:21:17] Joshua Finkel: And this character who has always retreated, who has always escaped, who has always gone to Aurora, to someone else, to some sort of fantasy to deal with life, has, for better or worse, become a man. Her leading man.

[1:21:33] Richard Bermudez: My biggest fan, my leading man.

[1:21:35] Joshua Finkel: He becomes her leading man in that final tango. And it wasn't about looking like Valentin or acting like Valentin. It was about acting like himself. And the strength that he had. And the strength of what that is. Which is so reaffirming about gay identity.

[1:22:05] Richard Bermudez: Absolutely.

[1:22:07] Joshua Finkel: Even if you're a man that is more feminine or trans or whatever, toward that non-binary, whatever, gender fluid. It's like you still can be strong. You still can be a hero. You still can be all those things. Your behavior doesn't delegate your heroism.

[1:22:12] Richard Bermudez: Oh, beautifully said.

[1:22:14] Joshua Finkel: 100%. You know, it's really powerful. He's shot in the head.

[1:22:18] Richard Bermudez: Shot in the head.

[1:22:20] Joshua Finkel: He dies, right? He dies, and he goes to a movie musical heaven. And in the final scene, all of the characters come back out and kind of create the audience for this movie. And his mother's the usherette, like she was when he was five. And showing people to their seats. And the Spider-Woman included.

[1:22:40] Richard Bermudez: Spider-Woman gets the best seat in the house.

[1:22:42] Joshua Finkel: And starts the standing ovation for him. Molina sings "Only in the Movies," right? In a white tux.

[1:22:46] Richard Bermudez: In like a Fred Astaire white tux.

[1:22:50] Joshua Finkel: It's like gorgeous. He's now living out his fantasy, his heaven, if you will. The final moment is him finally having the bravery and the beauty and the authenticity to kiss the Spider-Woman. It's so great. And what's so interesting about this, during previews, some people were like, oh, what about like right before he gets shot, that number happens. And at the end of it, after the kiss, he's shot. And I was like, that would make more linear logical sense in terms of what the kiss means and when it happens. But that'd be a lot to get back into that bloody makeup really fast.

[1:23:32] Richard Bermudez: Oh my gosh.

[1:23:33] Joshua Finkel: And it happened. Not only that, but like the mortal body dying and giving up the ghost, right? Sometimes two different things. As someone who had a father who was brain dead for the last 12 hours of his life, your body can go, but your spirit can stay on. And so I really do believe it is the truest sense of Molina who goes to the Spider-Woman and says, yes, this is my time. I'm ready.

[1:24:09] Richard Bermudez: My gosh.

[1:24:11] Joshua Finkel: Ah, great show. Complex. I could see probably 10 productions of the show and they'd all be completely different and say something, you know.

[1:24:18] Richard Bermudez: And learn something different from it.

[1:24:20] Joshua Finkel: Yeah. It's incredible. Thank you so much for doing this with me, Josh.

[1:24:23] Richard Bermudez: Oh my gosh, how fun was this?

[1:24:25] Joshua Finkel: Thank you for having me. Oh my gosh. I hope folks learn some stuff or, you know, I'd love comments. Like any more questions, like let us know.

[1:24:32] Richard Bermudez: Oh yeah, there's so much that we weren't even able to discuss. It's a lot of layers.

[1:24:36] Joshua Finkel: There are layers.

[1:24:40] Joshua Finkel: As always, if you have recommendations for shows you'd like us to cover on A Musical Theatre Podcast, you can always email me at amusicalpodcast at gmail.com. Don't forget to follow us on social media, Instagram, Twitter, TikTok, at amusicalpodcast. We also have Patreon! Where for only one dollar a month, you can support the regular show and get bonus content made especially for you as a thank you. We also have a TeePublic store. I want to thank Maui Academy of the Performing Arts where I'm currently recording. Oh my gosh, I'm just so grateful to be doing this. It fills my soul.

[1:25:21] Richard Bermudez: Hey Josh, how can we follow you and everything you're up to?

[1:25:26] Joshua Finkel: Both on joshuathinkel.com and that's J-O-S-H-U-A-F-I-N-K-E-L. You can follow me on Facebook and Instagram at joshuathinkelactordirector. I'm teaching a bunch of different classes this summer. I teach a build-your-own-cabaret act class. I coach privately in my studio and do classes as well. I'm directing a couple of shows. One of them is called "Careful What You Wish For," and that'll be probably on the boards in about a year. And with a long-range vision of that going to Prague for a sit-down production there because it's based upon three short classic Czech ghost stories like Ichabod Crane is in America. Same thing, these three stories are as famous in the Czech Republic. So they're grouped into one evening.

It's like a 90-minute evening of these three shows with just piano and cello. The music is so rich and delicious and turning and beautiful. And so we're hoping to do that in Prague as a kind of a sit-down production in about a year and a half. And it'll be playing probably Los Angeles the summer of 23. And I'm going to a reading of the third show of that tonight and see where we are with how that's developing. So I'm going to give it more than one listen to a joke before I tear out the pages.

[1:26:49] Richard Bermudez: Before you rip it out like that!

[1:26:50] Joshua Finkel: Rip it out and start over!

[1:26:53] Richard Bermudez: Also, you're not going to ban the playwright from the room?

[1:26:58] Joshua Finkel: No, no, I certainly will not.

[1:27:00] Richard Bermudez: Good job.

[1:27:00] Joshua Finkel: It's a big hug. It's a big inclusion hug.

[1:27:02] Richard Bermudez: Yeah, for sure. Always.

[1:27:05] Joshua Finkel: Well, thank you again. Best of luck with that. Can't wait to see what comes of it. That'll be really, really exciting. Everybody out there, thank you for listening. And remember, you cannot escape.