Patrick Oliver Jones:

There's something about watching people fly through the air that has always amazed me. As a kid, I was glued to every acrobat and trapeze artist at the circus, wide eyed and full of wonder. Years later, living and performing in Las Vegas, I saw Cirque du Soleil for the first time. And that feeling came rushing back. The flips, the lifts, the impossible things bodies can do. It was like watching dreams in motion. But then I discovered Theater Tol. And they take things to another level, literally.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Imagine aerialists and dancers suspended high above a crowd, not under a tent or inside the theater, but out in the open sky, spinning and soaring in intricate choreography, while live music fills the air and the audience stares up, completely captivated. And in this episode, I'm joined by two artists from this internationally acclaimed company.

Hannah Snow:

Hi everybody, my name is Hannah Snow. I'm an actor, singer and dancer. Originally from Belgium, but I now live in New York City. I have been an an aerial performer with Theater Tol for 10 years and I now also help out behind the scenes with media and marketing.

Benjamien Lycke:

Hello everybody. I'm Benjamien Lycke. I'm from Belgium. Bruges. I still live in Bruges. I'm a composer and conductor. I've been working with Hannah on several projects and now I'm also the managing director of Theater Tol and I'm rewriting old music.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Hannah and Benjamien may have come to Theater Tol through different artistic avenues, but their efforts came together and create something that is part performance, part spectacle and part logistical feat. Because for every magical moment the audience sees, there's a behind the scenes world of planning, shipping, rehearsing and adapting to whatever curve balls the weather or international touring might throw their way. And at the heart of it all is a team of artists who believe deeply in the power of movement and music to transform public spaces into something poetic, unexpected and unforgettable. In this special presentation of the full conversation, which is what subscribers get, we'll be talking about how Hannah and Benjamien found their way to this kind of performance. What it's like touring post Covid with rising costs and tighter margins, and why, even when funding falls through or conditions get tough, the work is still worth it. Because when it all comes together, the result is something audiences and artists never forget. I'm Patrick Oliver Jones and thank you for joining me on season nine of why I'll Never make it, an award winning theater podcast where I talk with fellow creatives about three stories or moments of personal struggle and professional hardship. Subscribers will get additional audition stories as well as early access to the episodes.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

The website is why I'll never make it.com where you can subscribe, donate, and learn more about the podcast. Again, that's why I'll Never Make It Dot com.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Oh, welcome, Hannah and Benjamien. It is such a pleasure to have you both. I can't wait to be talking about Theater Tol today and all of your experiences.

Hannah Snow:

Thank you for having us.

Benjamien Lycke:

Hello.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, before we do get started into your three stories, I did want to talk about the theater company itself and Theater Tol. It was started in 1998 by Lot Soonchus, which is based in Antwerp, Belgium. And Hannah, you've been one of the performers, aerialists, dancers, actors with the company and then Ben, yourself as managing director of the group. What is it, Hannah, we'll start with you as a performer. What is it that makes Theater Tol so, so special and unique in the. In the artistic world?

Hannah Snow:

Well, there is truly nothing like it in the world, which is why even though it is based in this very small country called Belgium, Theater Tol gets to perform all around the world because there is truly nothing like it. Sure, there's other companies that offer aerial spectacle and things like that, but I think it is the combination of you not only have aerialists flying above you, but there's somebody playing the violin and they're on a single bike and they're going by and then there's somebody dressed like an angel and then you hear Omeo babi no caro and then maybe there's a musical theater song and it's such a bizarre combination of elements that somehow become so fantastical and magical. Yeah, there's truly nothing like it, whether it's the costumes and the music and then also who's in the air. And you know, I'll bring up an example. My brother is a classical violinist, so somewhat serious in orchestras, etc. But because Theodore Tol had this brilliant idea of also putting musicians in the air, he now gets, he gets to fly up there with me and sometimes I'm twirling and I'm looking and I'm seeing my brother play the violin and it's, it's just, it's mind boggling in the best way. So it is utterly unique. Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Well, and the thing is, I got to watch a few of the videos, the, the trailers and different things for the shows that you, that you guys produce around the world. And I will say it gives me vibes of Cirque du Soleil. Does a comparison like that bother you or, you know, whenever, whenever people related.

Hannah Snow:

To something like that, I, I Will, I will say, I think our wonderful founder Lot was very proud of what she created, for good reason. And I. I would say that she would say it is not circus and for that reason would not prefer that comparison. But it is verbiage that I have used simply to explain how fantastical it is. So it is a fair comparison in that sense. Yes.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And for you, Benjamien, running the company, what has it been like taking over from Lund?

Benjamien Lycke:

Well, it has been quite a ride because I'm. I studied composition, so I'm a musician at the base. But I've. I've been running a few companies now, a dance school and also two other production companies. So. But there's. The scale of this is huge because we're going around the world for the first time. I had to manage a tour, going to Taiwan, going to Bogota in Colombia.

Benjamien Lycke:

So the scale of it is huge. There's over 80 performance that in different combinations work together depending on who's available on what job. And what is really different is that everything is outside. So it's not within the confinements of a theater with all the pros and cons that come with that. But there's a lot of stuff going on that I was not used to coming from opera and musical theater regulations of cities, what you can and can do and can't do outside stuff like that. There's a crane. There's a crane operator that is not used to theater. So you have to do a lot of translation, not only in language, but also translating the theater elements to.

Benjamien Lycke:

To. To people that are not used to that. And it's, It's. It's been really, really. Yeah, like fun. I loved it.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And is it one lone company of performers or are there different companies that go throughout the world at different times?

Benjamien Lycke:

So we can do. Depending on the show, we can do several shows at the same time. To give you an example, usually on the 5th of January, there's five of our bike parades running at the same time in different cities. Because that is five. The fifth of January is the Three Kings.

Hannah Snow:

The Three Kings, yeah. It's a huge deal in Spain and we celebrate it on the 5th. Yeah.

Benjamien Lycke:

Voila. And then we're usually part of parades, but if I'm not mistaken, I think we can do three aerial shows at the same time. And in the past, I think we've been playing in Chile and at the same time in Taiwan. I think I'm right. You were part of that.

Hannah Snow:

That's correct, yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Wow.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Such a.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Such a huge company. A huge undertaking. Well, we're definitely going to be talking about that throughout the episode. But I did want to get to your first story. And, you know, I think every artist at some point sees a work or performance that may inspire them or make them think that they can never top that. And for you, Benjamien, this was Philip Glass's 1975 opera, Einstein on the beach, which actually, in doing a little research, was his first operatic score. And it lasted. It's a show that lasts more than five hours.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So it is an epic opera for sure. What is it about this opera that made you think, well, I can never do better than that. I should just quit?

Hannah Snow:

Well.

Benjamien Lycke:

Yeah, Philip Grass was, for me, my way into classical music. So I always had this love for his work. And at a certain point, I don't remember when it must have been 10 years ago now, there was a revival of the original production in Chateau Lame in Paris, and I went to see that and I was just blown away by it. The professionalism, the cleanness, like how it was so well done. But also, there's no real narrative in this opera. So it feels like an opera. It's a complete work with dance and characters and everything, but there's no narrative. You can't say it's about a boy meets a girl and then there's drama going on.

Benjamien Lycke:

No, it's literally just about Einstein and the idea of Einstein and all kind of connotations you can make with that. And theater. Tol's productions are a bit similar in a way. It's not. There's no real narrative, and it's really hard to do that because coming from opera musical, I'm used to working with this libretto and then there's a story and something is happening. And how do you keep. How do you tell a story that has no narrative, but that gives the audience pointers and bits and pieces to make their own story? And that is what also interested me into working with theater Tole, because there's no real narrative and you can make your own narrative. Looking at the images and hearing different music and the different things that happen in the air that don't really have an explanation, but although are very concrete, but can really provoke a lot of your own imagination with regards to what is happening.

Benjamien Lycke:

And that is what Philip Glass and Einstein on the beach did really, really, really well. That made me think, like, wow, how am I going to top this one?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And for you, Hannah, as a performer, I'm a performer as well, so having that narrative is something that we can kind of ground ourselves in. And so having this Typ. Kind of a little music over here, a little dance over here, aerials over here. There's. There's a lot of elements going on that, as Benjamien was saying, not necessarily a narrative. Does that make it easier to perform a freedom, or does that get a little wonky sometimes?

Hannah Snow:

Yes, all of the above. Yeah. Yes. Because I personally, I consider myself an actor first, which I think even the most. The greatest singer of all time. If you're. If you're going to do a musical, it's always about the story first. But I feel like the fantastical nature of theater Tol almost overrides it all.

Hannah Snow:

It is such a strange, immersive world that you get to be in. And I think what makes it unique is that as performers, we are in this immersive world, but the audiences as well. It's like almost like we're experiencing something similar. And you sort of. This sounds almost cliche, maybe, but depending where you are, what country you're in, what the weather is like, what show we're performing, the people's moods, you create the narrative together. It's really interesting. And as much as I like to go really high with the crane, just because it's a kick when you actually go lower and you get to see somebody's face, like, looking up at you and you connect, that's your own little story. So it can be a different story depending on the audience member, depending on their age, depending on their background.

Hannah Snow:

And yeah, it is. It is a high. The pun is so horrible, but it's a real high to be part of that. Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And what was so interesting, I did a little research about Einstein on the beach, and it was an opera that actually put Glass and his librettist, Robert Wilson, in huge debt when it first went on tour because the booking agent sold the show for so cheap that it actually cost so much more to put it on. And Philip Glass had to go back to taxi driving and other things just to kind of, you know, get financially secure again. So when it comes to being an artist, I mean, I'm sure you both have had side jobs and just trying to make a living. And so even the great Philip Glass has had to do that. And so what have been those kind of side jobs or things that have kept you both going? Hannah, we'll start with you.

Hannah Snow:

Oh, that is a hilarious question. I mean, listen, I'm in New York City, so it is all the Muggle jobs, as we say. I tour guide, I. I babysit. Shocking actor job, I. For a while, I took care of people that live with dementia because they're often looking for caregivers that have an artistic background because the arts help keep the mind alive. And it's one of the last. It's back here.

Hannah Snow:

It's one of the last things that stays alive in the brain. So it's really beautiful to get to sing with somebody and they remember all the lyrics and all that. So it's been that. But at this point, I'm also privileged enough to be helping out Theater Tol behind the scenes, which is wonderful because I care about the company. It's not, yes, it's a side gig, but it's also I deeply care about the company and I want them to succeed. And I'm very aware of how challenging it is to own a company and keep it alive. And I, I'm honored to be hopefully a little part and keeping them going. You know, I, if I can mention the C word, covet was definitely a huge challenge for the company and somehow the company survived it.

Hannah Snow:

But I, I, correct me if I'm wrong, I think the company's still in a sense, climbing out of that. The world also changed because we are an international company. A lot of our stuff doesn't fit in planes. Like it has to go overseas. Right. But the, the prices for all those things have just astronomically changed. And it's so much more expensive. It's so much harder for us to go to South America and whatnot.

Hannah Snow:

So we're still trying to figure out how do we move forward after this pandemic. Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And for you, Benjamien, obviously being a composer, you're not paid to write. You're only paid once you sell it. So how have you, how have you kept going?

Benjamien Lycke:

Well, actually I have a side gig now going on is that I used to be really annoyed that I never had good video recordings of when stuff of mine was performed. So I bought a fairly good camera myself and started filming my own little concerts. And then this. That way I bragged myself into being hired for, for filming concerts and doing little videographers jobs. So one of my last side gigs was filming at Tomorrowland, which is just an EDM dance music fest, just filming stage. So my side gig is filming stuff. But actually that came in really handy because I'm using what I've learned now as a cameraman to make nice videos of theater tool. So everything you see on the website, for instance, is made by me, also the drone shots and everything.

Benjamien Lycke:

So there's a lot of doing stuff ourselves. And this is. So we're three people managing the company now, me, Talita and Lucas, and we all have our or our own specialties, let's say. And, and so we can do. We can do a lot of stuff ourselves, which saves us a lot of. A lot of money because we don't need to outsource everything. And to coming back with. With regards to what you said about Philip Glass, that he sold his first show way too low, that it.

Benjamien Lycke:

That it was actually losing money. Actually, our founder lot did the same thing with the theater stall shows. There was a lot of. A lot of times that she. She really wanted to play at some place and that she back then that she would say, okay, let's bring the price down, and then we'll do the prize a bit higher for other. For other places because we really want to. To play at certain venues. And then sometimes it's.

Benjamien Lycke:

It's luck because Theater Tol was asked to be part of the London Olympics Olympic game performance. And that was a huge. A huge publicity plus because since then, yeah, it was really booming to get. To get commissions to go around the world. But as you said, Hannah, during COVID Yeah, every. Everything stopped. Because the thing is, with a company like this, we don't have our own venue, but we have a lot of maintenance on all the equipment we have. So we need to store all the equipment.

Benjamien Lycke:

It needs to be maintained. It also needs to be checked every year that it's still secured because we're people. People's lives are depending on it. We're hanging people in the air. So there's a. There's a huge maintenance cost. Basically, if we would just pause for one year and not perform, we were definitely bankrupt. So there's this ongoing thing that, that.

Benjamien Lycke:

That we need to move forward and need to keep on playing. Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, for story number two, the financial considerations that you've both mentioned are certainly part and parcel of being an art. And that leads us into the stories that you wanted to talk about and share different aspects of this. Hannah, you had mentioned that there are challenges of performing internationally, especially after Covid, with the rising costs of putting your gear and sets on ships that go to Asia, South America and all around the world. Now, I'm curious, has this forced Theater Tol to alter schedules or rethink how they stage productions in different places?

Hannah Snow:

I think that's a Benjamien question.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Okay, yeah. Yeah, we'll go with Benjamien then.

Benjamien Lycke:

Yeah, we're actually now in the process of doing that because because of the costs that are. Have gone up last few years, we are now rethinking a lot of our shows. How can we make them more compact? For instance, last time we went to Taiwan, it was one container filmed, filled with all our stuff. And there's a lot of dangerous equipment as this, fireworks going on and so on. So we are now really looking into altering it. Also, there's a lot of stuff we. We throw confetti and, and. And how is it called, Hannah? The.

Benjamien Lycke:

The. The stuff we throw it. I don't know. I don't know. The English.

Hannah Snow:

Is there a name for it? The glitter. The glitter, yeah.

Benjamien Lycke:

And it's.

Hannah Snow:

It's.

Benjamien Lycke:

Yeah. And it's not that good for the environment. So we are also looking into upgrading that as well.

Hannah Snow:

It looks fantastical because we perform in the dark and there's lights and then you throw these glittery hearts and it sparkles everywhere and people go ooh and ah. But because, you know, the world is changing and a lot of clients don't want that. And for the environment, we're throwing paper now at basically. So we're figuring out a new way to do that.

Benjamien Lycke:

So actually this is an ongoing discussions I have mainly with Lucas, who is our technical guy. Like, how can we, for instance, remake certain parts of the equipment we have so that it's easily more easy to fold and to disassemble and assemble to make it more compact to travel? Because the highest cost we have is the transport of equipment, for sure.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, I'm on tour with Beetlejuice right now. We just took the tour up to Alaska. And so that meant putting all of our sets, costumes and equipment on planes rather than. Rather than via truck. And this was, you know, obviously much more expensive than going by truck. And then number two pieces ended up being damaged. And so it's. So.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So that means it took extra time, extra cost to kind of fix what was messed up. Have you guys have similar expectations or have you had similar experiences going to different venues?

Hannah Snow:

Well, if I. If I may interject, we. Because we're always outside, we are, you know, whatever the weather God does decide we perform. Right. If it's truly storming, we don't want to be electrocuted. So we will sometimes have to postpone a show or whatever. But we do perform in the rain, so. But there are costumes that get really wet.

Hannah Snow:

The one particular costume piece that the singer wears is actually a ginormous skirt. She's sort of in the middle of our trust. So the dancers are up there and then the middle is the. The opera singer usually. And it's this massive, oversized, gigantic skirt. The Ariela skin Aerialist hides underneath and then pops out. This skirt is massive, so it does not go home on a plane with the other costumes. It goes in one of those massive containers.

Hannah Snow:

But if you perform in the rain and then you put something wet in a container, sometimes for months, because that's how long it can take. It comes out moldy, and your stuff is ruined. We've. We've gone through that.

Benjamien Lycke:

Yeah, yeah. And actually, last time, when our. When our container came back from Taiwan, we are actually pretty sure that it was completely submerged with sea water. We actually. Yeah, we're sure.

Hannah Snow:

Because I didn't know that.

Benjamien Lycke:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because so everything has been. The Flemish word is rust, Hannah.

Hannah Snow:

Rust.

Benjamien Lycke:

Rust. Okay. So we can. We can see everything. And also. So, for instance, there's also a lot of batteries that are coming along. Fortunately, they are. They are waterproof.

Benjamien Lycke:

But there was an indication of it that showed that it was completely submerged to its water. So you have to prepare for everything.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

My goodness. Yeah, Yeah. I heard from one of the local theater presenters there in Anchorage that they spent $700,000 to get the show there as far as just, like, transportation, getting everything. And so, I mean, that cost just seems crazy to me. And also, unfortunately, ticket sales weren't what they hoped to be, and so the show ended up losing a lot of money. And so there have actually been two tours that came after us that have canceled because we lost money. Then those tours are like, well, we're going there. So.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So it's unfortunate, but now Anchorage isn't going to get to have other tours come through. And so, you know, touring can be very profitable. We've. We've had great cities, and we have had overages that have been great, but you can also lose money. It sounds like that Theater Tol has to battle those financial considerations as well.

Benjamien Lycke:

And the problem is, as well, is that, for instance, I can, for instance, ask for a quote now to ship a container to New York. And it might be today €800, but tomorrow it can be €8,000. So prizes can go. So it's. So also when we have discussions with our clients, to put a price on something is really hard because it's fluctuating a lot.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And as far as you, Hannah, how have you, as a performer, how were you able to make a living just being with Theater Tol? Was that your only job? We talked about side. How does that work?

Hannah Snow:

No, I think every. Well, every performer in Theater Tol is a freelance performer. Right. Because it also depends on availability. So say we get something in our schedule that Says, hey, guys, we have this booking in Colombia in October. Who's available? So I mark myself as available. And it's a week of work. Right.

Hannah Snow:

So we're all freelance performers, and nobody's tied to the company. Everybody's to come, welcome to come and go as they wish. This is one of my companies that I've been able to rely on in terms of. I'll probably perform with them a few times a year. Yeah, it's one of the. The many. Yeah. Jobs.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And so how exactly does that work with. With so many different performers around the world also performing around the world? How do you maintain a core company? How do you rehearse? How do you bring someone new in to then learn new shows? How does that process work?

Hannah Snow:

Yeah, so it's a lot. It's mostly remote, I would say, in terms of preparation, you. There have been auditions every few years. There are a few auditions when we're looking for dancers and whatnot. And then you get a video of the choreography, and you've got to figure it out. You get a test in the air. That would be round two of auditions. Are you scared? Is the only thing that we're looking at at that point? Are you screaming or are you fine? And then if you're in, then you get videos of the choreography and you learn them at home.

Hannah Snow:

And then you come into the gig and you get together with the four dancers and you figure out who's where. And it's very disorienting the first couple times because you can. You're used to doing a choreography, and then suddenly you're in the air and you're facing out, and it's. It's disorienting, but you kind of. Yeah, it's a little bit trial and error, but. And that is. You know, I am going to use the word again. That's a little bit of the Cirque element of it all.

Hannah Snow:

It's. It's sort of boots to the ground. Like, it's. It's just kind of everybody's doing everything, and we figure it out as we go. Being with the company for 10 years, I don't think I've had one booking where I've done the exact same thing. Because it depends on the client and they want a shorter version of the song or there's a new dancer and they just did the audition, and the choreography is slightly different. And I'm like, cool, I've done this for eight years. And now turning the other way.

Hannah Snow:

Sure. Right. So it's very. Just. You have to Be flexible and open. And. And then when I speak for musicians, just because my brother's in the company, basically was like, here's the backing track, here's the music, and then let's. Let's go.

Hannah Snow:

Basically, right. You get to rehearse on the day. There's always a technical rehearsal. Are we safe? It's always safety first, of course. And then we sort of run the show. And. Yeah, you have to know that you can only work with performers that are flexible, open, that are going to have an open mind that know, you know, what they're stepping into. We do work with classical singers and.

Hannah Snow:

But you. There is. There is a sense of. As much as it sounds fun and fantastical to travel the world, it is. It's a hard job because we are all very Cirque, like, responsible for building our entire construction. So we are wearing gloves and boots, and we are banging away. We are building those bikes. We are building the stage, basically.

Hannah Snow:

And you cannot always find classical singers to use an example that want to do that. And not only singers, but I'm just using that as an example. So as fantastical as it sounds, you do have to know that you have to find people that are willing to also do the hard work. So these are really, really long days. And actually, the closer to home you perform, the harder you work often, because you sometimes do everything in one day. You'll leave early in the morning, you arrive at the location. Everybody's in there in their, you know, dirty clothes, and, you know, your hair is a mess, and you're banging, and you're building your own truss, and you're setting up the dressing room, and it's like 15 layers that we're wearing. We're working for hours.

Hannah Snow:

Okay. The entire construction is built. Then we have a technical rehearsal, and then we do our own makeup, and we do all of that, and it's a full. Usually a white face paint. And then that takes an hour and a half. So then you perform. We perform in the dark. So we perform at 9, at 10.

Hannah Snow:

And then you break down. Very often, we break down after the show, and we have to deconstruct that entire structure that you see in the air. We deconstruct it. So everybody's equal. There is no diva behavior. There's none of that. There's truly just no room for that. And it's one of the most wonderful things about the company because everybody's equal.

Hannah Snow:

But on the other hand, you have to find the right people that are willing to do that.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, I know that for, especially for touring auditions, the personality of the performer is just as important as the talent. You know, do I want to be around this person 24 hours a day? And for you, Benjamien, as leading the company, there's also the logistics. There's different languages, there's different pay rates, there's different, all these different things contractually that you have to do. That must be its, that must be its own work there.

Benjamien Lycke:

It is. It is. And it has. It has been something for me that I had to really look into because I was not used to being at the position of doing all that. Also there's a lot of legislation you need to be aware of depending on what countries. Even within Europe, everything seems to be confined in Europe. But every country has its own little quirks going on. And as Hannah said before it, for me the most important thing is that safety first, everything needs to be secure and safe also legally.

Benjamien Lycke:

So that is one of my concerns also with authors rights and stuff like that. This has, has not been always as easy because a lot of our clients are for instance city councils or the mayor of some city in the south of France, of a little village in Spain. And then for instance, especially when you're neg negotiating contract and, and so on, it, it's, it's, it's a difficult conversation. And, and as I said before, it's it. The, the translation is not necessarily another language but that our clients not always speak the language of, of. Of what a theater company does because we are not playing in a theater. So that has been the, the biggest difference. But the logistics, usually I'm not doing all the, the logistics myself as in technical guy, he is maintaining also the, the equipment.

Benjamien Lycke:

He has a huge depot where everything is stored and he, he organizes the, the trucks and all the traveling and the maintain maintenance of that. And that's, that's a whole different job. So I'm not, luckily I'm not doing that. But yeah, that's. Yeah, that's, that's a whole other story.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It sounds like it's a, it's quite an undertaking. Yeah, because you're dealing mostly as you said, with, with non theater folks. So you know, they, they may not know exactly what to expect. They may not know exactly how to ask for whatever they're wanting. So you're kind of having to decipher not only the language but then just what exactly they, they mean by what they want.

Benjamien Lycke:

And just to give you some very simple examples, I'm. When I first drafted a contract, I had a template from from the former owner. And there was all kinds of stuff in there that I thought, but why is it in there? It's so obvious. Like, why would you put this in a contract? But in the two years I've been running the company now, we've had the most hilarious and strange stuff going on. For instance, one example in Taiwan, in the contract, we demand that our equipment is always secured because we work outside, and sometimes we play two days in a row, and then our equipment stays build up outside. And so in Taiwan, we had. We had one show, everything went fine, and then suddenly everybody was gone on the main square in that. In that city, and everything was there unsecured.

Benjamien Lycke:

And then basically we were. I had to call somebody. Like, is. Is somebody going to secure this, like, tape, Is it off, and make sure that nobody can get it? No, it's fine.

Hannah Snow:

It's.

Benjamien Lycke:

It can be okay. But then I had to go, actually late at night, I had to ring somebody up and say, okay, but we need to stay there because this is thousands of dollars of equipment over there. Just unsecured. Yeah, stuff like that. And, Hannah, maybe you can tell the story with the black paint in the dressing room.

Hannah Snow:

Oh, my God. Okay. Do you want a funny story? So I was. I was with Theater Tol in South America, Columbia, October. And they had given us a dressing room outside in, like, a tent, which is fine. You know, we've. Again, we're easy. And if you're not, this is not the company for you.

Hannah Snow:

But it was raining, and I don't know why, but they had decided to sort of paint the floor of the dressing room black. And it started raining. And it started raining inside this tent and the entire floor. That paint first, I don't know if it wasn't dry yet or what, but that just this black gunk was just floating in our dressing room. Mind you, most of her costumes are white. So that was interesting. And I think I was the one who was like, what about this empty building that is right here? And they were like, oh, yeah, you can use that as a dressing room. We were like, great, we'll do that for tomorrow.

Hannah Snow:

So, yeah, you. That stuff like that happens all the time.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Oh, my God.

Hannah Snow:

They don't think further than what they know, right?

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I assumed that the white costumes were saved.

Hannah Snow:

Most of them. Yeah. Yeah.

Benjamien Lycke:

But the funny thing was that then after the rain stopped, they started painting again.

Hannah Snow:

That's true. They repainted.

Benjamien Lycke:

Yeah, they were very helpful. They were very helpful, at least.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Oh, my gosh, that's so Funny.

Hannah Snow:

And Benjamien wasn't there, Talitha wasn't there. So they were in Europe with their newborn, basically. So we were, like, trying to wake them up, figuring out what to do. That's always fun.

Benjamien Lycke:

But, yeah, another. Another very small and funny story is that in Taiwan, we always ask for a few volunteers, local volunteers that are just there to secure because we have a lot of moving parts on the ground. And so we walk in the audience and we always ask for volunteers just to accompany the performer when they go through an audience. And we, in the contract, we asked, please make sure that they speak English or French or German. Well, the first performance we had, there were 20 volunteers, but none of them spoke English but not a word. So basically they had to walk around with a smartphone and Google Translate all the time, even during the show. And then. And we also asked for three volunteers that are in costume, that we give them a costume.

Benjamien Lycke:

They walk around. Well, they forgot about that. So they just rang up three taxis and they asked the taxi drivers to park their car. And they were paid as taxi drivers, but just basically to get in costume and walk the show with us. And then later that night, I called for a taxi and I recognized one of the drive is because he was still in makeup.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Oh, my goodness. Yeah. I'm sure you have stories like these for days. Well, as we get into the third story, we're going to be getting into things that you have mentioned. And you're outside theater Tol is all outside. You have these riggings. You have different things. And so you mentioned lightning storms.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

You may postpone or cancel the show. So you're dealing with extreme weather conditions in all kinds of places. And you did mention a couple of places that there was. There was one Columbia, I think, where there was some. Some particular extreme weather. Tell us about these places that made them unique.

Hannah Snow:

Yeah, I. So Colombia, this is again, last October, I believe this was our second show. And so we're on this massive town square. It's beautiful. It's gorgeous. And the. The people in Colombia, in general, in South America, are very open. They're very excited.

Hannah Snow:

You know, the Belgian, the Germans. It's not a lot of emotion there, you know, but if you go to South America, you're going to get whoops and cheers and they're having a great time. And I want to say, like, mid performance, we're flying, we're twirling, we're doing our thing. It starts drizzling and, you know, your costume's gonna get heavy and you're thinking, oh, and you see people whip out their umbrellas, but like we're above them, so you sort of have to have rain in your eyes to be able to see what we're doing. And I see people trickling away, sort of leaving the town square. And you know, this is thousands of people sometimes. And it's a kick to perform for thousands, right? I see people trickling away. And there were a couple new girls in the air.

Hannah Snow:

I was probably the senior dancer in that booking. And it started raining harder and I was like, okay, I can either cry or I can just like go crazy and like make a party out of this. And I started whooping and cheering, going and like dancing even harder. And the audience heard us. The other performers started doing it with me. The audience heard us and started cheering back. And it was, it was such a, such a perfect example of how you create the show with your audience. Because we were yelling and whooping and cheering and they were doing it back to us.

Hannah Snow:

And I saw some people trickle back and they were just accepting that they were drenched and we were accepting that we were drenched. And it was because I remember I probably yelled out loud, is this what it's like to be high? Which is again a terrible pun, but I felt like I was on drugs. It was such an insane high. And we landed and we said hi to everybody and they were taking pictures with us as if we were celebrities. It was just wild. And it was my favorite performance I've ever done. Yeah, it was very cool.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Wow. And so. And so, Benjamien, when it comes to shows like this and being outdoors, I assume that there are times where there are certain. You've mentioned different laws and regulations, different places, that there are certain protocols that have to be in place if there's this weather or that weather.

Benjamien Lycke:

Yeah, it is. So it depends on the crane company. They have their own set of rules. When the wind is that strong or we only lift this much, we can only. So for instance, the range of the crane changes depending on the force of the wind. But sometimes it's just pure physics, nature law. As in, for instance, that same show in Bogota that Hannah is talking about. Bogota is so high, just from sea, sea level that our main generator, this electric generators that go into the trust, that go into the structure.

Benjamien Lycke:

So it's all like the electricity is made like self sustained on the, on the truss, but because of the density of the air is not as high as it should be. For that generator to work properly, we actually had to buy. Look into how are we going to solve this technically and we had to buy batteries, like huge battery packs, to replace those generators. Because just before we, We. We. The equipment left, left the warehouse here. Somebody mentioned us, like, did you. Do you know that Bogota is really high up from sea level? It might be that these generators, they don't work.

Benjamien Lycke:

And then we're like, oh, no. So we won't have electricity in here then. Then you need to very quickly find solutions. So. So we invested the €10,000 in into batteries, otherwise it would not be able to perform. And that's not just regulations, that's just physics, nature, loss.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And with so many pieces of equipment, you're having to buy new things. Like you say, these batteries, where is all this stored? Is it in different places around the world so that you're kind of close to the venues that you need to go to?

Benjamien Lycke:

Well, so we have our main storage now here in Bruges. Used to be an Android, but now we moved back, back to Bruges. It's a huge warehouse where everything is stored. And we also have a storage space in Spain because we perform a lot in Spain, especially in January. And for two years there has also been storage space in Chile, but we had to give that up during COVID because we couldn't pay for it anymore. So basically it's now Spain and Bruges. But we're really looking into Asia because there's a lot of demand for these kind of shows in. In Asia.

Benjamien Lycke:

So it would be really good to have like a central depot somewhere in Asia, because even if it's. If. If you have to. To transport something from Taiwan to. To. To. To something to Japan, for instance, it's. It's.

Benjamien Lycke:

It's. It's still another island, but. But it's way closer than it. Than. Than Belgium. Of course, also because it. For instance, if we ship something to Taiwan, it takes six months, so that's also six months that we can't use the equipment to perform anywhere else. So.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's all about timing, logistics. Yeah, yeah, It's. It's a whole other side of the business. Yeah, it's the business part of the show. Yeah, I totally get that. And it's interesting, Hannah, as. As you were talking about the, the different places that you performed, I.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I started thinking about the audiences. Yes, there are different people that express themselves differently in different cultures. Have there been places where you don't think the show works as well? Just the people aren't as receptive or just doesn't quite fit that culture?

Hannah Snow:

No, I wouldn't say so. Actually, my favorite thing about Theater Tol is that. Well, first of all, I really believe that every performer should do some type of street theater at some point in their career, because you encounter audiences that. Audiences that did not sign up to be there. And that is my favorite thing about Theater Tol is that it's free, it's out there, open for the public, and either they know and they show up and they're intrigued, or they see somebody flying above them and they're like, oh, cool, I'm going to watch that. And it's sort of. I. I have never done a performance with the company where I did not feel like we did not move our audience in some way.

Hannah Snow:

And they might be more muted in their expression of that depending on the country that we are in. But it is always a thrill and an honor. One of my favorite memories is actually one of our ground shows, which is called Bike Parade, where, if you've seen images of our show, Pedaliando hacio al cielo, there is bikes that are in the air, and the dancers are on top of the bikes. Those bikes, however, can actually bike, and they do bike through the audience before lifting up into the air. But we have a separate ground show called Bike Parade, where the bikes are simply biking. We're dancing on the bikes, and we're just going through streets. Right. One of my favorite memories is performing in Brussels in Belgium.

Hannah Snow:

This is years ago, and it was a neighborhood that had a lot of immigrants and people that, you know, would never, never consider buying a ticket to a theater show or a musical or an opera or. You just know. These people would never even consider stepping foot into a theater, especially in this country that they now have to live in due to whatever reason. Right. However, seeing us bike through those streets, small little Brussels street, seeing people on their balconies bringing out their kids, just. Just in awe, their eyes sparkling, thinking, I've never seen this in my life. And. And being able to move them and affect them in some way, and not in a pompous way, but to bring theater and art to people just because.

Hannah Snow:

And spontaneously is just one of the most beautiful things the company offers. And I'm so proud. And after 10 years, I still get emotional being on those bikes. My favorite thing is the kids, because they've never seen anything like it. There truly is nothing like it. Our costumes are completely bizarre and unique, and, you know, we throw little feathers at the kids, and they get excited, and it's truly. I. I love that we.

Hannah Snow:

We bring art and performance to any human being, and I really really deeply believe that the world needs it more than ever. It's also not a company that uses any political messaging. It's truly only about the art for the sake of art, which I think is so important, and I'm proud to be a part of that.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, let's get into this audition story. I think this is from you, Hannah, about Machinal and auditioning for that. Tell us about this.

Hannah Snow:

Yes. So I am a founding member of a new theater company here in New York City called New York Theatre Company, and our inaugural production is Sophie Treadwell's Machinal. So, I mean, I suppose what, what was very interesting for me is as a founding member, I'm in the thing, but then I was part of callbacks and, and being a reader for callbacks and seeing people audition and everything. And I, you know, you sort of, as an actor, you know that it's not about you and it's not this and it's not that, but to finally be sort of behind the table and see everybody walk in and hear some of the feedback that was given, I learned a lot. I learned a lot about. Even though you know all these things, to see it in front of you, how the person that walks in and is so themselves is the person that they're interested in and how bold choices matter a lot more whether they're right or not. And we know all these things. Right.

Hannah Snow:

But if, if you experience them. Yeah, it's really, that's really interesting. I learned a lot doing that.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And, and for you, Benjamien, as a composer, obviously you're getting different singers to, To. To do your work. What is it like? Or finding the right performer to do your work.

Benjamien Lycke:

Yeah, it's. Well, I, I've been singing a long time ago as well, so I, I know how, how it is to be on the other side. And yeah, the thing is. And that, that, that's also different with the arts at all is that I tend to rewrite stuff for the singers. And actually, so we have our main group of. Of singers and, and there's two upcoming shows now that we have a new opera singer actually, and this made me want to change some things and, and that is more suited to her voice, actually. But so, so I've. I've never been with Theater Sol in.

Benjamien Lycke:

In an audition yet because we've. We've had enough singers now, so we're not in. But there's a new singer coming in because we're doing a little show that is specific client. So what I do is I like to, to. To adapt to The. To the person that I have in front of me. And in the past, I've been writing several musical plays and I had the fortune of. Of actually casting before I wrote music.

Benjamien Lycke:

So. And that is really interesting because you have an idea of. Of how a certain character will be, and then suddenly there's this singer in front of you that is perfectly for this role, but actually gives you an idea of what that character can become. And so it's this magic that goes between the person that I had in mind for this character and then the actual person in front of you that is giving more continents and flesh to that character. And then it's really nice to. To make it into a reality with that actor or singer.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

It's so interesting that you bring that up because obviously most of the auditions, I'm sure Hannah give the same. That most of the time we're auditioning for a set piece, you know, something that's already been written. It may be in workshop, but at least the main core of it has been written. But to audition for something that is really new hasn't even been written yet, that must be. In some ways that must be daunting to you because it's like, okay, now I have performers, now I got to create some. Something.

Benjamien Lycke:

Yeah, yeah. And. And sometimes I, I make mistakes as, as I. You see two additions and then you have a. An afternoon with a certain actor or, or to. To get an idea of the vocal range or what they can or can't do. And then I, I write the song and then it doesn't work, and then I need to rewrite it. So.

Benjamien Lycke:

So. But it's. It's nice to have this collaboration that it's going back and forth, forth. And yeah, also composers make mistakes because I've been in positions that I've seen that composers sometimes can be really like a. Kind of a dictator. This is how it should be and this is how I want it. But I'm not that kind of composer. I like to have something that is workshopped and really well made to better because in the end, I think it's.

Benjamien Lycke:

It's going to be better as well. Because. Because it's. It's when this part of the actor in it and when the composer keeps in mind who is going to do it, it's, It's. I think it's. It's. It's better. Well, at least from my experience and.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I'm sure, Hannah, we both can relate to being in the room and we just want to give that best audition possible. We want to present the song in the best way, especially if it's a new song that's being written. But. But yeah, I'm sure I. I know I've worked with the. When the composer's in the room, and it needs to be a certain way, and they're very particular. It's their baby. They.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

They need it done a certain way.

Hannah Snow:

Yeah. The play that I'm rehearsing right now, we get our line notes right, which is like, okay, you said the thing that you paraphrase. You know, you got to be line perfect. And that depends on the team. It depends on the director and whatnot. But I haven't had that experience in a bit, so I'm just like, okay, line perfect, you know, because I'm. I'm all about acting and just. This is what the message is, and it doesn't matter too much, but.

Hannah Snow:

No, it matters. They want you to. To. To get the lines right. In terms of what Benjamien says. I can. I can definitely speak as somebody who's worked with Benjamien and Talita for a while, and this, I consider myself to be their friend, is that they are incredibly collaborative, which I think as an artist, you're forced to be collaborative, but they have a really good balance between knowing exactly what they want, but also being open and. And.

Hannah Snow:

And again, you know, the client has their demands and needs and wishes, and you have to adjust depending on that. But they're also very open to our feedback. They don't take it personally. They're. They're very mature in their approach, and it's something that's rare and appreciated.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, welcome back. It is always so inspiring to hear stories and experiences like the artists of Hannah and Benjamien. And we really got into theater Tol and all that goes into performing these unique performances around the world. But there is so much more to uncover. And here in the final five questions, we're going to be taking a closer look at pivotal moments in both of their lives, along with personal reflections and ideas for the future that have made their journey so unique. So let's get started with question number one. Hannah, what do you remember most about your first professional show?

Hannah Snow:

Okay. I was in a version of Cinderella in Belgium, but it was a very different version. It was called Cinderella the Fairly True Story. And I remember distinctly a song called We're. We're Throwing a Ball, but we were quite literally dancing with footballs. It was a punny show, and I got so excited finally being on a stage and feeling those spotlights and feeling the audience that I distinctly remember jumping up and down out of sheer excitement instead of doing the choreography.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Yeah. That is definitely one, one take on a very classic story.

Hannah Snow:

Yep. Very professional. Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

All right, Benjamien.

Benjamien Lycke:

Well, there used to be a time that I also conducted a lot. And my first musical theater piece in Capitol Ghent, I conducted myself. And during the premiere, I was so excited that I actually sang along song, which a lot of composers, conductors do, but. But actually some people in the. In the orchestra were looking at me like, stop singing, stop singing. You're way too loud. You're way too loud. So, yeah, and.

Benjamien Lycke:

And my mom was in the second row and she confirmed that she could hear me sing.

Hannah Snow:

Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

I mean, it is your piece. You got into it. I. I totally get it. Oh, my gosh, that's so funny. Well, number two, if you could give advice to your younger self starting out, what would that be?

Hannah Snow:

You are right that you should move to New York City because you will be much better understood than in Belgium and you'll actually start booking work even though it's oversaturated. You do not belong in Belgium, so go do that.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

That is very specific to you.

Hannah Snow:

Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

What did you find was the biggest difference in going from Belgium to New York?

Hannah Snow:

Well, as big of a mess as America is right now, you can be excited in America and you could be proud, and it is not in Belgium if you're very proud. It is often perceived as arrogance and often excitement gets muted here. I would much rather that people say the word amazing to me five times a day than be in a country that constantly questions why I would want to live an artistic life.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Interesting. Did that ever make you doubt yourself or doubt this profession that you wanted to be a part of?

Hannah Snow:

No. And I. I thank my parents for that. I did not have a conventional way of growing up in the best way. My parents are very, very non. Traditionally Belgian and always stimulated me and my brothers to absolutely be a performer and be an artist. So without them instilling that confidence in me, I would not be here.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Benjamien.

Benjamien Lycke:

Yeah. Actually also, I can confirm that, that what Hannah says is true. I have to fight this almost every day. That you can be enthusiastic and be proud of your stuff without being arrogant or perceived arrogant is really hard. What I would say to myself, my younger self, it's actually, I think, a cliche, but this practice. More, more. I'm a really shitty pianist and I would. Would have loved to be better, but I lost so much time at fooling around on the piano, composing actually, and trying stuff out.

Benjamien Lycke:

But I. I didn't have much Focus, I guess. So I would, I would encourage my younger self to focus more on what is important and maybe practice more.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, yeah. I think that's something we could all use. Yeah, it's, it's very easy to, to kind of relax and just kind of find other interests and pursue those. Yeah, yeah. It's all about discipline and dedication, for sure. Well, number three, what does success or making it mean to you?

Hannah Snow:

I love this question because I don't believe in making it. And I think that's, I think that's the wonderful part of moving to New York, Mark, when I wasn't Even, I wasn't 30 yet, but at least I wasn't 18, is that I came with a more relaxed approach. And I've been wanting to live here for so long that simply, finally living here has given me a sense of calm. The longer I live here, the easier it is. Obviously in the beginning, it's not an easy city to live in. You truly cannot come live here unless you have a real reason to. But I don't really believe in making it because I can honestly say, even though I'm currently booked and blessed, I'm not necessarily a happier human being for it. I also truly can find real contentment in my life babysitting and taking care of those little kids.

Hannah Snow:

And I babysit for a Broadway family and, you know, and, and they, they share their troubles and it's very hard to do eight shows a week and all that. And I, I, I sometimes think I'm probably more content than somebody who's on Broadway, so. And also, we, we. It's no longer old Hollywood where, you know, you're gorgeous and you get plucked off the street and they teach you how to act. And now you have a, you have a contract with MGM that doesn't exist anymore. So you can book a really big gig and then not work for two years and it's up to you to stay content and happy. And I think I'm becoming a lot better at that. I am determined to be content.

Hannah Snow:

It's a choice that I try to make every day and obviously I want as a performer, but that's going to be fireworks on top of the contentment that I've built for myself. That is my goal. Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And for you.

Hannah Snow:

And that's success.

Benjamien Lycke:

Yeah, actually, I, I agree completely with what Hannah says. I remember when, so when I finished my studies here in, in Belgium for composition, I, I moved to London for two years and I did a screen composition, so composing for screen at the Royal College of Music. And I had this vision of myself afterwards. I want to go to Hollywood and be the next Hans Zimmer. But actually I'm really happy that that didn't happen. And I find that I'm really happy with having like I live at home all the time. I'm raising a baby child now and Talitha is working at the dance school and I can do all the work I do for theater Tole and the music composition I can do at home. I have my piano here and my studio equipment and I'm really happy with that.

Benjamien Lycke:

And, and I'm not really that interested in the, in the glamour and the big fame or so I. I rather do what I. I rather enjoy what I'm doing than doing something that is huge or big. For instance, I did an opera production at Lemonade, which is one of the biggest opera companies here in Belgium. But it was so stressful and I wasn't really happy actually at that, at that point.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

So.

Benjamien Lycke:

Yeah, also the most. Also, for instance, money wise, money is not that, that interesting to me. I think time is the most interesting thing. I had a. I had a very serious accident a couple of years ago that made me think the most precious thing we have is time and we need to spend it really well and at the things where we love to do. And that can be simple and we don't need other people to define for us what is successful or not. We. You can be successful at a very small thing if it makes you happy.

Benjamien Lycke:

That's the important thing. I think.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, I think that's one of been one of my biggest things is there's so much time that I spend, especially whenever I first moved to New York, the time that I spent going to this class or that class or getting to know this person, networking, you know, all those things that yes, it's important. You do have to. Especially if you're coming to the city fresh. You need to introduce yourself. But so much of those times that I chose to do something else and then I missed out on this friendship or going to this event or doing things that personally enriched me and satisfied me. It is a balance of finding the time for yourself and not just time for the business or for the artistic endeavors as well.

Hannah Snow:

And if I can chip in again, I can truly say that what I have accomplished in New York so far as a performer is simply because I've showed up to other people's random things and you show up for each other and you build friendships and then you start a company like a theater company together. And now I'm a founding member in the Cedar Company because my dear friend here had the idea of starting it. Right. And, and also what I wanted to say is that I think especially here in Europe, but probably also, you know, anywhere. But I think a lot of performers, especially kids, as an actor, you really, everybody's a freelancer. You don't, unless you book like your Mariska in Law and Order. It's. You're a freelancer, right.

Hannah Snow:

And so for, for most actors, your happiness depends on the next job you book. But then what happens in between, right. It's like, I'll be happy when it's such a trap. And I'm determined never to, to fall into that because I think that's what burns you up and that's, that's when people give up. Right. So I, I, and of course finances are real, but I think a lot of people here, especially in this city that are successful around me start their own little companies, which is also something that I have done. I've started my own marketing company. And hopefully that creates some sort of financial cushion that makes you be able to take a breath and then you can do all the things you want to do, you know, so my, my happiness cannot and will not depend on, on the job I book.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, I like that. I like that. Well, number four, I'm really looking forward to this question because you're both from outside the US and it is. What changes would you like to see in the industry moving forward?

Hannah Snow:

Whether you want this to be true or not, the political landscape shapes what gets produced. I think that's very true for Broadway right now because the political landscape shapes people's thoughts and feelings and opinions and then also shape shifts what they want to see and what sort of performance they attend. So I don't know. For me, that's a really big question. I mean, everybody's screaming to see original work and then the original work doesn't do well and then they close in two weeks. So. Oh, gosh. My big dream and hope in life is that people keep maintain to have nuance in their life and in their opinions and that they think for themselves and that it's okay to be in a gray area sometimes.

Hannah Snow:

And I don't know, I feel like this could be like a three hour TED Talk. Yeah. Just that I do think there's something out there for everybody and I, I hope people keep producing work that, that appeals to many people. And if I, if I may plug theater Tol again, I really think that it's the perfect company for that. Because is quite literally something that appeals to a 5 year old and also an 85 year old like both of them can look up and see us fly and be completely enamored. So I would say more of that.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Benjamien, what about you?

Benjamien Lycke:

I'm not sure what I can add to that, but I would like to change any industry. I need to stress also that I think the industry in the US is quite different from what the industry is in Belgium. So just to give you a general idea, if you're not subsidized as a arts company, impossible to compete with the subsidized companies. So that's something that I would like to see change. Just to give you a very small example, there's only four string orchestras, professional string orchestras in Belgium. If you found a fifth one, it's impossible to make it because those four are subsidized. And that's a struggle that is now going on. Also on a political level, it's on how are we going to manage that to actually maintain the high quality we have with the orchestras that are around.

Benjamien Lycke:

But just arts companies in general. But how do we also encourage entrepreneurship within the arts to actually go into field and actually start a company or maintain a company that is non subsidized, which theater Tall is for example. We are very lucky that we can work around the world and also abroad, but within the landscape of Europe that is a big thing that is now. And actually we are looking to the US a lot of well, how are they doing it? Good and negative the both. But it's really interesting for me also with a lot of conversation I have with Hannah to see how different it is and how we can learn from. From one another.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah. Because with that, with that subsidizing, if you could, you know, we have a magic wand, we're going to wave it. Would you want there to be more government subsidies or for there to be this new kind of private sector donor class that then starts supporting things so that a fifth and sixth string company can succeed?

Benjamien Lycke:

Yeah, the latter I think. Yeah. Because what I've found, like I've worked in several subsidized arts companies and I'm. I won't mention names but. But what I, what I saw is that when you're subsidized people tend to get lazy sometimes within a management. I mean, because there's no necessity as in for instance what I told earlier, if we don't perform with the art at all for one year, we're bankrupt. So there's this real urge and necessity to actually get out there and do something and to make it good. And sometimes, especially in theater, it can be a bit too much laid back and easy.

Benjamien Lycke:

Oh, the money is there anyway. So, of course, that's a big generalization. But. But, yeah, I've seen several companies now that have been getting lots of subsidies for a long time now and that haven't produced anything worth. In last few years. So. And they. They.

Benjamien Lycke:

And actually one of those companies did lose their. Their government subsidies, and that's when they became interesting again because they had to reinvent themselves. How. How can we manage this? And. And then the new work that came out of that was actually more interesting. So.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What. What's that. What's that phrase? Oh, creation begets necessity.

Benjamien Lycke:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know what you mean.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yes. All right, so fifth question, last question. Describe a personal lesson that has taken you a while to learn or one that you are still working on to.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

This day.

Hannah Snow:

I suppose that. That nobody thinks about you as much as you think they might. So it doesn't matter. Does that make sense that you. We should care less and just pursue what we want to pursue, so long as we don't harm others? Yeah. Again, if I go back to. I am thinking as a performer, but if I go back to being a reader in those callbacks, it's. It was the people that showed up in jeans and sneakers and a bizarre top and their hair, you know, wonky, that were interesting and appealing, and it.

Hannah Snow:

I think we should care less. And I. And I deeply care. I'm just. I'm a. I'm a very emotional person. I'm certainly dramatic. I'm certainly too much for Belgian standards.

Hannah Snow:

I. I'm doing a lot better here, but, yeah, Yeah, I think just moving with grace, but just living. Living that life that you want to live. Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Is that. Is that something that has helped your performance, being able to live more freely in this way?

Hannah Snow:

Yeah. Allowing myself to be more dramatic and exuberant. Like, I'm thinking back on that performance in the rain in Colombia, and I just started hollering and hooting and. And it didn't really matter. I don't. I don't even know if artistically that's something that Talithan Benjamien would have liked. I don't know. But I just.

Hannah Snow:

It's. It's an impulse that I had, and it really, like, helped the show end on a high and. And it felt good and authentic. And, you know, it's. That's that other quote that I'm probably going to butcher of. It's better to ask for forgiveness than permission. I think that's a, that's a fair, fair quote to live by. Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

And for you, Benjamien?

Benjamien Lycke:

Well, it's, it's a very real thing now is I have a procrastination problem. I have so many interests that, that I, I, I, I'm, I have so many projects going on at the same time and that I procrastinate too much. So I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm learning the hard way now that I need to keep time, time track, keep track of time more and, and I'm getting, I'm getting better at this. But to give you an example, I once had to write a full musical, 90 minutes musical for full orchestra in three weeks. And that was partly my own fault. I did it anyway. That's, I, nobody in the project actually knew, but in three weeks before the deadline, I, yeah, so that is something that I've learned not to do anymore. I just, he's five years, five months now, so I don't have the time anymore to procrastinate unless it's with him.

Benjamien Lycke:

Yeah, but to take up responsibility is something that is. Yeah. Especially now because, for instance, for the company, for Tiato to all, sometimes it's about a lot of money and I, I'm, I can't make any, any mistakes because we could go bankrupt. So this, this, this responsibility that is making me aware that, that, that I should behave and not procrastinate.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Well, yeah, yeah, I, believe me, that's something that I suffer with as well. Procrastinating. Wait until the last minute, you know, doing different things. But it, for me, it's been difficult to determine. Does that mean I need to do less? You know, so that way I can really focus and give my time to less things. Or do I need to be doing more of the things that I really love so that I won't procrastinate? If I love doing this or love doing that, I won't procrastinate. It's, it's finding that, that balance between doing less or doing more.

Benjamien Lycke:

The problem is that I have almost nothing that I dislike. So I like to cook, I like to sport, I like to read, I like to do bookkeeping. I like. So basically anything I do, I like. But composing, especially composing is a place where I become vulnerable. So it's always a bit scary to go there in a way. And that's what I've learned about myself, that I procrastinate because I, it's easier to go and cook something or do some more bookkeeping or answer more emails or do more outreach. But once I'm there, once I've decided to go there, actually go to the piano and take the piece of paper and write because I'm still writing on paper.

Benjamien Lycke:

That's how old fashioned I am. Once I get there, I can stay there and then then it. But it's always a step to take. Yeah.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Yeah, that first step. The first step is the hardest and no matter what you do. Well, this has been a joy to talk to both you Hannah and Benjamien. It's been such a joy to get to know you and hear more about theater Tol and hopefully, I mean I I'm traveling myself so it probably won't be for a while, but hopefully I can and get to one of these wonderful locations that you guys get to perform at and get to see it and look up at the A list and whoop and holler with them.

Hannah Snow:

Yeah, that would be wonderful.

Benjamien Lycke:

That'd be great.

Patrick Oliver Jones:

Thank you so much for joining why I'll Never Make It. And don't forget, you can become a subscriber and get bonus conversations by going to why I'll never make it.com and and click subscribe or just look for the link in the show notes. Be sure to join me next time as we talk more about why I'll Never Make It.